Everything Derozan

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

I'm going to disagree here. Every advanced stat and projection says that JV is our most talented player, he's just still young and underused.

Way to change the argument. I said that they are our best payers by far.

Now JV is our Most talented? Lol ok buddy.

That's why you shouldn't spend all your time with advanced stats....


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[Barolt]

Way to change the argument. I said thath Ed are our best payers by far.

Now JV is our Most talented? Lol ok buddy.

That's why you shouldn't spend all your time with advanced stats....


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I'm not even sure how to respond to this post because you made no coherent point except to dismiss my point for no stated reason.

JV compares pretty well to almost any player in the league at his position. You can't say the same about Lowry or DeMar.

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

I'm not even sure how to respond to this post because you made no coherent point except to dismiss my point for no stated reason.

JV compares pretty well to almost any player in the league at his position. You can't say the same about Lowry or DeMar.

Do you even know what talent is? I guess it's subjective if you think he's most talented player on our team.


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[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

I'm not even sure how to respond to this post because you made no coherent point except to dismiss my point for no stated reason.

JV compares pretty well to almost any player in the league at his position. You can't say the same about Lowry or DeMar.

For the record I dismissed your point because it's ridiculous.

He compares well to other players at his position.....so that makes him our most talented? lol

Lowry and Demar are top 5 at their positions. You clearly have a serious bias for Centers.





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[iblastoff]

I'm not even sure how to respond to this post because you made no coherent point except to dismiss my point for no stated reason.

JV compares pretty well to almost any player in the league at his position. You can't say the same about Lowry or DeMar.

thats because the league today isnt focused on centers anymore like it used to be. players like tim duncan who sort of play centers, are a dying breed. and most really good centers are really just PF's (for ex. horford and cousins AND duncan).

its pretty obvious the league of today is scoring guards. are lowry and derozan the best in the entire league? of course not. but they're definitely in the upper echelon of talent at their positions, and to say they're not is pretty fucking stupid.

[OldSkoolCool]

For the record, I thought I had noticed over a stretch that DeMar wasn't as good in the second half of games so I went and checked the stats, and they just don't support it. His Drtg is worse in the 4th quarter, but his Ortg is better. Slight decrease in net rating. His true shooting in the 4th quarter takes a slight dip, but not enough to be noticeable.

The biggest difference for DeMar in the 4th quarter? His assist rate drops from 21.3 to 14.7. But everyone has mentioned that we pass less in the 4th, so that's not surprising.

Not what I was arguing

Was just going off his one game where everyone was unanimously together saying he had a 'great' game

He had a great 1st quarter

And was less than his usual self the rest of the game.

Definitely not what I would define as a 'great game'

[JWash]

so DD shot 13-25 last night right?

So would it be better if he shot 1-13 in the first quarter and then 4-4, 4-4, 4-4 the last three? Would you then focus on the overall game or would the focus be on his shit first quarter? What if that 1-13 quarter was the 4th?

Jesus like a basketball game has ebbs and flows for each player. Trying to break it down into sections and then saying a guy didn't play well or did play well is pretty silly.

[Primer]

I'm not even sure how to respond to this post because you made no coherent point except to dismiss my point for no stated reason.

JV compares pretty well to almost any player in the league at his position. You can't say the same about Lowry or DeMar.

What the fuck? Derozan is the 3rd best SG in the league this year by every stat (after Harden and Butler), advanced or otherwise. So we can say that about Derozan.

Lowry is the 3rd best PG in the league this year by every stat (after Curry and Westbrook), advanced or otherwise as well. So we can say that about Lowry.

JV is 4th best C in the league this year by WS/48, so he's in the same league. Hard to say much else though because he hasn't even played 700 minutes yet due to injury.

[OldSkoolCool]

so DD shot 13-25 last night right?

So would it be better if he shot 1-13 in the first quarter and then 4-4, 4-4, 4-4 the last three? Would you then focus on the overall game or would the focus be on his shit first quarter? What if that 1-13 quarter was the 4th?

Jesus like a basketball game has ebbs and flows for each player. Trying to break it down into sections and then saying a guy didn't play well or did play well is pretty silly.

Well now you are getting into one of these types of arguments...


If the weather is shitty for 10 months of the year but beautiful for 2, do you say the weather there is shitty or beautiful all year?

If the weather is shitty for 2 months of the year but beautiful for 10, do you say the weather there is shitty or beautiful all year?



Right now I'm arguing the first one while everyone is adamant the second analogy is how we should describe DD...

[Primer]

Well now you are getting into one of these types of arguments...


If the weather is shitty for 10 months of the year but beautiful for 2, do you say the weather there is shitty or beautiful all year?

If the weather is shitty for 2 months of the year but beautiful for 10, do you say the weather there is shitty or beautiful all year?



Right now I'm arguing the first one while everyone is adamant the second analogy is how we should describe DD...

I think the best thing to do is what everyone does, judge the game based on the entire game, not quarters. His ending stat line was magnificent, who gives a shit which quarter he did the most damage.

[blackjitsu]

Wow. Some of the things that I'm reading are quite amazing. Every player has quarters that they excel or are average in. What you should want in a player is consistency. That's why I dislike Ross's game. There's no way to know if he's going to explode, or miss every shot. One day he's the best defender on the team, the next he's allowing his guy easy layups. Coaches can't put together a plan around that many what ifs.

DD is averaging 20+ PG (without the big swings in his game -- except the London game), playing more efficiently than last year and getting to the line at an amazing rate. Getting to the line is dismissed a lot, but it affects the pace of game, causes lineup issues for the opposing team, and it's a free opportunity to score.

People expecting Casey to bench the backcourt: Have you checked the +/- when those guys are not on the court? There are other ways to discipline players. I personally hate when coaches bench players to teach lessons. If the goal is to win, and both the players and coach want to win, why would you intentionally lose to prove a point? If a player is SO selfish that the team is better off with them off the court that's a completely different issue. But, Lowry and Demar's intent seems to be about winning, not padding stats.

Yes, JV is becoming an excellent traditional 5. But, how many traditional 5's are left? Can you name 20 real Centers who start in the NBA?

DD and Lowry rank in the top 10 in multiple statistical categories for their positions and overall. JV will get there, but you can't just assume that a higher usage rate will correlate with better stats. You can't just look at Per stats and make assumptions. Humans don't work that way. Stamina, increase risk for injury, and creating more data for opposing teams to scout are all a part of what more minutes and higher usage create. DD may have a very average PER rating, but he's doing that with teams building their game plans around stopping Demar and Kyle.

Is Demar great? Probably not. But, he's definitely a good, solid player and I don't think some of you guys understand how impressive his stats are when you consider that he's primary chalkboard material for 29 teams when they face the Raps and yet he still gets to the line, scores, and assists at a rate higher than many PGs in the league. His defense is meh, but I don't hear the same vitriol for Harden, so what gives?

[Barolt]

I'm not sure if it's directed at me there Blackjitsu, but I'll respond.

I find the Ross comment puzzling, because a lot of DeMar fans want to talk about how much better he's been the last two months and how he won't regress, when Ross has also played the best basketball of his career over the last two months, yet everyone's sure he'll regress. But that's a different conversation for a different thread.

DeMar's very good the last few months, and I've said that quite a few times. I'm not a DeMar hater, but I do think he has his limitations. I posted some very pro-DeMar posts just a few pages back where I defended his 3-point shooting in catch and shoot situations.

The +/- when Lowry and DeMar are on the court is interesting, because with Lowry we're clearly worse with him off the court. With DeMar, honestly, it's less clear.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/on-off/2016/

Our offense is about 2.5 points per 100 possessions better with DeMar on the floor, our defense is 8.8 points per 100 possessions worse when he's on the floor. Benching him for missed defensive rotations has some value if you ask me, especially in games like the Cavs game when JR Smith went off on DeMar.

As far as JV and traditional 5s, that depends on how you determine a traditional 5. Is Marc Gasol a traditional 5? He gets a lot of his offense off being the roll man in pick and rolls and elbow possessions, two situations where JV is very good.

DeMar isn't great in historical terms, but as I've said many, many times, he's top 20 offensively, top 30 overall in my books.

[Scraptor]

I'm not sure if it's directed at me there Blackjitsu, but I'll respond.

I find the Ross comment puzzling, because a lot of DeMar fans want to talk about how much better he's been the last two months and how he won't regress, when Ross has also played the best basketball of his career over the last two months, yet everyone's sure he'll regress. But that's a different conversation for a different thread.

DeMar's very good the last few months, and I've said that quite a few times. I'm not a DeMar hater, but I do think he has his limitations. I posted some very pro-DeMar posts just a few pages back where I defended his 3-point shooting in catch and shoot situations.

The +/- when Lowry and DeMar are on the court is interesting, because with Lowry we're clearly worse with him off the court. With DeMar, honestly, it's less clear.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1/on-off/2016/

Our offense is about 2.5 points per 100 possessions better with DeMar on the floor, our defense is 8.8 points per 100 possessions worse when he's on the floor. Benching him for missed defensive rotations has some value if you ask me, especially in games like the Cavs game when JR Smith went off on DeMar.

As far as JV and traditional 5s, that depends on how you determine a traditional 5. Is Marc Gasol a traditional 5? He gets a lot of his offense off being the roll man in pick and rolls and elbow possessions, two situations where JV is very good.

DeMar isn't great in historical terms, but as I've said many, many times, he's top 20 offensively, top 30 overall in my books.

There are too many confounding factors to reach these conclusions with any certainty.

Per nba.com the defense is better when all of our starters are off the floor--Lowry, DD, JJ/Carroll, Scola, Val. This suggests that our team D is better in the bench in part because we have a stronger defensive bench unit than other teams.

That said, DeMar has the biggest discrepancy on/off defensively. But given the attention he is drawing on O, benching him for D is going to have a marginal impact. Plus it'd be pretty hilarious for Casey to start benching him now; that horse left the barn years ago.

As for Val comparing favorably to other Cs while Kyle/Demar do not compare at their positions... Lol. Kyle especially is a clear cut leader across pretty much every advanced stat category. Demar isn't as great but he's still measures up solidly.

And I'm a huge JV fan fwiw.

[Barolt]

There are too many confounding factors to reach these conclusions with any certainty.

Per nba.com the defense is better when all of our starters are off the floor--Lowry, DD, JJ/Carroll, Scola, Val. This suggests that our team D is better in the bench in part because we have a stronger defensive bench unit than other teams.

That said, DeMar has the biggest discrepancy on/off defensively. But given the attention he is drawing on O, benching him for D is going to have a marginal impact. Plus it'd be pretty hilarious for Casey to start benching him now; that horse left the barn years ago.

As for Val comparing favorably to other Cs while Kyle/Demar do not compare at their positions... Lol. Kyle especially is a clear cut leader across pretty much every advanced stat category. Demar isn't as great but he's still measures up solidly.

And I'm a huge JV fan fwiw.

The point about JV comparing more favorably than DeMar/Kyle was horribly written, I'll admit. No idea why whenever I write something badly people feel the need to attack me personally(not that you did), but whatever.

What I meant to say, and didn't write well, is that I think JV could be, in his career, the best player in the league at his position. I don't see that happening for DeMar/Kyle. The gap between Curry and Kyle, or Butler/Harden and DeMar, is simply too big. Also, JV is younger and has more growth left.

I'm much more of a DeMar fan than I was two months ago, fwiw. I've also pointed out a good few pro-DeMar stats in the last few weeks.

[special1]

It's pretty easy to see who's actually a fan of Demar and who's not.

If you just became a Demar fan.... Yay.

About fucking time!


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