Everything Derozan

[Wild-ling#1]

lol. he doesn't shoot 32% on pull up 3s.

There's like 5 players in the league who should be shooting pull up 3s. Demar will never be one of them.



So your argument against his small sample size stats is that they must be wrong because they're small in sample size? wow.

and the bold, yet another jab from you?

Yeah, sure - because I invented the jab, right? Whatever - "yes", the remark was somewhat "arch".

People have insisted that DeRozan will never change this and will never do that (i.e. well). Or that Bennett will never amount to anything (etc., etc.) Pointing out that someone is struggling in an area is one thing. But insisting they actually swear off "above the break threes" (as has been suggested) or pull-ups (as has been suggested - even for Lowry) is really very bold, wouldn't you say? Not impermissible, of course .... but .... bold.



I'd like to see Derozan keep trying the above the break threes (for example), if he wants to ... thinks they'll come. And I think it's odd to try to insist he give up right now.

[SkywalkerAC]

league average effective FG% (weighted for 2s and 3s) is around 50%. i.e. approximately 1 point per shot. So generally yeah a 3 point shot from a 32% shooter is "bad" and from a 34% shooter is "good".

Only if you insist on calling slightly below average "bad".

[KHD]

Yeah, sure - because I invented the jab, right? Whatever - "yes", the remark was somewhat "arch".

no you just seem determined to say something about other posters in almost all of your posts.

People have insisted that DeRozan will never change this and will never do that (i.e. well). Or that Bennett will never amount to anything (etc., etc.) Pointing out that someone is struggling in an area is one thing. But insisting they actually swear off "above the break threes" (as has been suggested) or pull-ups (as has been suggested - even for Lowry) is really very bold, wouldn't you say? Not impermissible, of course .... but .... bold.



I'd like to see Derozan keep trying the above the break threes (for example), if he wants to ... thinks they'll come. And I think it's odd to try to insist he give up right now.

uh, no actually, i don't think it's bold to tell a guy not to shoot one of the worst shots in basketball. Low percentage, no rebounders in position. It only should be used in very rare occasions, and only by guys who have a really good shot of hitting it. There's not many guys who shoot a good percentage on a pull up three.

Lowry needs to cut them as well.

[KHD]

Only if you insist on calling slightly below average "bad".

well, very generally speaking it is a subpar shot. But this of course is a highly simplistic analysis that ignores, for example, the benefits of spacing that even a 30% shooter could provide.

But i wouldn't call anyone under 34% a "good" three point shooter by any means.

Edit: further to this, i'd much rather see Derozan shooting catch and shoot 3s than long 2s, even if he only shoots around 30% on them.

[JWash]

Wild-Ling you're not confusing pull-up 3s with above the break 3s are you? I mean most pull-ups are taken from above the break, but they're not the same thing.

Just making sure, because it seems that's why the current argument is going in circles.

Pull-Up 3 = When a player shoots a three after more than 1 dribble.
Above the Break 3 = A three shot from the area between a 45 degree angle and straight on from the basket (i.e. any 3 not taken from the corners)
Catch and Shoot 3 = A three taken when a player has the ball for 2 seconds or less and does not dribble
Corner 3 = A three taken from the corners of the arc (basically around where the sideline meets the baseline).

Not trying to be a dick or anything just want to make sure everyone's talking about the same stuff.

What most want is DeMar taking primarily catch and shoot 3s, and of those, most should be from the corners because he shoots that shot well (40% this year, 39% last year, 39% the year before). The reason people (myself included) are suggesting DD limit his above the break threes isn't to slight him, it's because he's better from the corners, and also oftentimes those above the break threes tend to be pull-ups.

He does appear to be improving on his set-shot shots from above the break though. Going purely by eye-test here though because I'm not sure where to find something that breaks down his catch-and-shoot percentage by specific areas of the floor.

[Barolt]

http://nbasavant.com/shot_search.php...lMin=0#results

There you go. Above the break 3s where DeMar took a minimum of 1 dribble. He's taken 19 this season, hit 3. Last season he took 13, hit 0.

This season off 0 dribbles, he's taken 20, hit 7.

That's the difference between 0.45 Points per possession, and 1.05 points per possession. League average across all possessions is 1.056 points per possession.

So catch and shoot he's exactly league average, pull-up it's literally the worst shot DeMar could take.

[Wild-ling#1]

Wild-Ling you're not confusing pull-up 3s with above the break 3s are you?

No, I got it. No offense taken though. I was just trying to say that I like seeing players have the courage to risk the public failure ... to get better. But I like what Lowry said on this subject, with reference to Biz shooting jumpers (in the Zach Lowe interview): said he'd never criticize Biz for taking them because he works hard on them in practice.

Biz is only 23.

So it's not just carelessness or arrogance, I guess. Same with James Johnson spending this summer in Toronto working on his threes. Cool. I'm really pulling for JJ. I kinda;' wince, sometimes, when hte tgakes 'em (especially early in the clock). But I love it when they go down.

I actually think JJ might be here for awhile. Or earn a real shot elsewhere, I suppose.

[SkywalkerAC]

I think Wildlings point was more that we really don't know how Demar might progress as a pull-up 3-point shooter, and whether he might be put in that position due to shot clocks, pick and roll play, etc. I think we can all agree it's not his shot for the moment. But above the break wasn't either until perhaps recently.

[SkywalkerAC]

http://nbasavant.com/shot_search.php...lMin=0#results

There you go. Above the break 3s where DeMar took a minimum of 1 dribble. He's taken 19 this season, hit 3. Last season he took 13, hit 0.

This season off 0 dribbles, he's taken 20, hit 7.

That's the difference between 0.45 Points per possession, and 1.05 points per possession. League average across all possessions is 1.056 points per possession.

So catch and shoot he's exactly league average, pull-up it's literally the worst shot DeMar could take.

Unless he improves at them.

[Barolt]

I think Wildlings point was more that we really don't know how Demar might progress as a pull-up 3-point shooter, and whether he might be put in that position due to shot clocks, pick and roll play, etc. I think we can all agree it's not his shot for the moment. But above the break wasn't either until perhaps recently.

Thing is... there's a LOT of good catch and shoot 3pt shooters above the break. There's a ton of guys who can do it with some efficiency. There's about 5 guys in the entire league who can hit the pull-up 3 at a decent rate, and they're all historically great shooters.

So unless you think, at 26+ DeMar is going to morph from a below average shooter(not scorer mind you, he's good at that) into a historically great one, it's a bad shot.

[JWash]

http://nbasavant.com/shot_search.php...lMin=0#results

There you go. Above the break 3s where DeMar took a minimum of 1 dribble. He's taken 19 this season, hit 3. Last season he took 13, hit 0.

This season off 0 dribbles, he's taken 20, hit 7.

That's the difference between 0.45 Points per possession, and 1.05 points per possession. League average across all possessions is 1.056 points per possession.

So catch and shoot he's exactly league average, pull-up it's literally the worst shot DeMar could take.

Pull-ups are bad for any player pretty much. The only guys I can think of off the top of my head that shoot them well and in high volume are Durant and Curry.

That is interesting though that he's shooting above the break 3s at a 35% clip off catch and shoot. And then 40% from the corners... This could be harnessed. The sample sizes are small, but DD could actually be a 35-36% 3PT shooter if you forced them into the right situations and from the right areas.

[Barolt]

Pull-ups are bad for any player pretty much. The only guys I can think of off the top of my head that shoot them well and in high volume are Durant and Curry.

That is interesting though that he's shooting above the break 3s at a 35% clip off catch and shoot. And then 40% from the corners... This could be harnessed. The sample sizes are small, but DD could actually be a 35-36% 3PT shooter if you forced them into the right situations and from the right areas.

I think you're about the only person who's getting that when I've been talking about DeMar's 3pt shooting lately, I'm giving pro-DeMar stats, not anti-DeMar stats. It's not a bad thing to be a bad pull-up 3pt shooter. Very few people are good at that.

But if he can improve his shot selection there(like he's done with his midrange game), he can be an acceptable 3pt shooter, which is all he needs to be given how good he is at driving to the basket.

[JWash]

I think Wildlings point was more that we really don't know how Demar might progress as a pull-up 3-point shooter, and whether he might be put in that position due to shot clocks, pick and roll play, etc. I think we can all agree it's not his shot for the moment. But above the break wasn't either until perhaps recently.

Skywalker, even Lowry only shoots 28% on those. Guys like Ross/2pat are below 20%. There is nothing WRONG with sucking at pull-up threes, most guys cannot shoot them for shit.

It is the most difficult shot in the game. It's also impossible to guard because of the unpredictability of it, but you've got to be able to make them for that to matter. This is why Curry is so deadly because he is unprecedentedly good at them, takes almost 6 a game and shoots them at over 40%, like it doesn't even make sense, dude has broken the NBA.

Really the only players I'd feel comfortable with taking the pull-up three regularly are Curry and Durant. I know there are a few other guys hitting them at a good clip this year (McCollum, Gordon, Redick, etc) but it's just a tough fucking shot.

[SkywalkerAC]

Thing is... there's a LOT of good catch and shoot 3pt shooters above the break. There's a ton of guys who can do it with some efficiency. There's about 5 guys in the entire league who can hit the pull-up 3 at a decent rate, and they're all historically great shooters.

It's generally not a great shot but sometimes defenses don't give you great shots. There has to be a reason so many of them get shot year in and year out aside from the idiocy of players.

[Barolt]

It's generally not a great shot but sometimes defenses don't give you great shots. There has to be a reason so many of them get shot year in and year out aside from the idiocy of players.

You know why our true shooting goes up when the Lowry + Bench group is on the floor? It's not because we have better players out there, DeMar's better than anyone in that group but Lowry. It's not because they hit tougher shots either. It's because we move the ball to create a better shot. If the best shot you can get yourself is a terrible one, it's time to trust your teammates.

Trusting his teammates has been a big area of growth for DeMar this season, and it's still an area where he can get a lot better.