Everything Derozan

[JWash]

What I have a problem with is sometimes when the team game is killing it and then Lowry or DeMar decide they wanna go into Kobe-mode.

That is not what happened last night, everybody was sucking and DD was getting some points on the board, which is great because otherwise we would've lost by like 40.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I don't see what's wrong with what DeRozan did last night. He took about the same number of shots per 36 that he normally does. How is it such a big crime to start looking to score when nobody else is really producing offensively?

Edit: For the record his assist percentage last night (40%) was almost double what it normally is. This is starting to get to a point I'd like to call "over-criticizing" also known as "nit-picking". How do you see the Raptors get blown out of the water by a lottery team, DeRozan (and Ross kind of) being the only players that shot well and your #1 complaint about the game is that DeRozan was looking for his too much?

Not sure if this was directed at me, but if you look back to the start of the conversation I was involved in, you'll see that I actually thought last night's games against Denver was one where DeRozan should have been more aggressively looking for his shot. Lowry, on the other hand, should have been given the night off.

The conversation become more theoretical after that.

[JWash]

Not sure if this was directed at me, but if you look back to the start of the conversation I was involved in, you'll see that I actually thought last night's games against Denver was one where DeRozan should have been more aggressively looking for his shot. Lowry, on the other hand, should have been given the night off.

The conversation become more theoretical after that.

It's not directed at you.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

But what you refer to as "selfish hero-ball" is the same thing as doing what is necessary to help your team win when in a situation like yesterdays game where nobody was playing well except DeMar. It's the mentality of every top player on a team that they are the best player on the floor and can take over a game. Lowry is always going to believe that the next shot is going in. There is no way to switch that mentality off.

I completely agree that he should have diferred because he was having a bad shooting night and that he could have put more effort into defense. But again, when the team is playing badly he will always feel like he can dig them out of any hole.

Now we're talking about two different things. I started out by saying the DeRozan should have been more aggressive against Denver, because he was one of the few bright spots offensively.

Lowry was the one playing terrible hero-ball, who should have been benched. With regards to the bolded, if the player is unable to realize he's having an off night (being generous) and/or that he needs to find other ways to contribute positively, then that's further indictment of the coach not being very good.

When you started talking more generally about #1 options, that's when I started including DeRozan, as he and Lowry are the clear top options on the Raptors. And no, "selfish hero-ball" is definitely not the same thing as "doing what is necessary to help your team win".

A great example of this is the home game against the Clippers last season, when DeRozan couldn't buy a bucket - he started something like 0/8 or 1/8. Instead of continuing to force his own game, he became a facilitator and used the defensive attention paid to him to his advantage, setting up teammates for open looks. He finished with something like 8 assists, and he also doubled-down on his effort to rebound and defend, essentially becoming nothing more than a decoy on offense. I hailed that game as one of the best that DeRozan has ever played, because he put the team first and adapted his game to positively contribute, despite having an off night personally. That is what "doing whatever is necessary to help your team win" means.

[Barolt]

Then criticize that... since it actually makes some sense, unlike blaming a guy for being the lone bright spot offensively. However everyone not just DeMar played poor defense yesterday. And I think a lot of it had to do with Casey and co. not prepping them properly for the game (which Casey even admitted to in the post-game presser).

I'm somewhat less directing this at DeMar than at CoJo, Lowry and the system. The idea that other guys aren't doing anything offensively when we aren't generating offense for them bothers me.

A lot of those guys need shots generated for them, and we didn't have any movement working last night to do that. Casey's comments at the end of the Detroit game particularly bother me after our assists have been so low lately.

You're right, DeMar was one of the few guys who had it going last night, but one of his limitations is that he isn't good enough to just put us on his back and win games singlehandedly, so if he needs teammates to win games, he needs to find ways to bring that out of his teammates.

Everyone needed to play better defense, but the lack of playmaking is on our 3 ball-handlers, and DeMar is one of those.

[JWash]

I'm somewhat less directing this at DeMar than at CoJo, Lowry and the system. The idea that other guys aren't doing anything offensively when we aren't generating offense for them bothers me.

A lot of those guys need shots generated for them, and we didn't have any movement working last night to do that. Casey's comments at the end of the Detroit game particularly bother me after our assists have been so low lately.

You're right, DeMar was one of the few guys who had it going last night, but one of his limitations is that he isn't good enough to just put us on his back and win games singlehandedly, so if he needs teammates to win games, he needs to find ways to bring that out of his teammates.

Everyone needed to play better defense, but the lack of playmaking is on our 3 ball-handlers, and DeMar is one of those.

How are you directing it less at DeMar when you're directly bringing him up in all your criticisms. I mean look at your last post

By the way, I'm actually a fan of DeMar when he's playing with the team this season. He just goes through stretches where he tries to do everything himself and it's frustrating for me to watch, because I know how much better he can be when he's a willing passer.

How can not being "good enough to just put us on his back and win games singlehandedly" possibly be referred to as a "limitation", there are next to no players in the league who can do that, it's a team game and doing that requires generational talent or just an insanely abnormally productive game.

How is he going to bring out better shooting from his teammates? He did what he could, tried to score the basketball more. You can see that even CRF just said that DeRozan probably should've been even MORE aggressive trying to score since nobody else could really get anything going.

I'm just not sure what you're expecting from the guy at this point. Seems like with the impending max or near-max contract the expectations have been raised from be a productive, efficient all-star caliber SG to walk on water, turn water to wine, feed 5000 and come back from the dead.

[LJ2]

Now we're talking about two different things. I started out by saying the DeRozan should have been more aggressive against Denver, because he was one of the few bright spots offensively.

Lowry was the one playing terrible hero-ball, who should have been benched. With regards to the bolded, if the player is unable to realize he's having an off night (being generous) and/or that he needs to find other ways to contribute positively, then that's further indictment of the coach not being very good.

When you started talking more generally about #1 options, that's when I started including DeRozan, as he and Lowry are the clear top options on the Raptors. And no, "selfish hero-ball" is definitely not the same thing as "doing what is necessary to help your team win".

A great example of this is the home game against the Clippers last season, when DeRozan couldn't buy a bucket - he started something like 0/8 or 1/8. Instead of continuing to force his own game, he became a facilitator and used the defensive attention paid to him to his advantage, setting up teammates for open looks. He finished with something like 8 assists, and he also doubled-down on his effort to rebound and defend, essentially becoming nothing more than a decoy on offense. I hailed that game as one of the best that DeRozan has ever played, because he put the team first and adapted his game to positively contribute, despite having an off night personally. That is what "doing whatever is necessary to help your team win" means.

But again, everyone was having a bad game and Lowry being one of our two "go to" players was playing ultra aggressive, as he knows DeMar cannot do it on his own. If the team had it going and he was playing that way then yes it can be described as "selfish hero-ball", but when the teams as a whole (save DD) is sucking then it's doing what he can to help the team win. If everyone is shooting poorly who would you rather take the shots, your best players or the role players? Again the context being last nights game. What is Casey going to do? Bench one of the only players that could help the team win or let him play his way out of the same rut the whole team was seemingly in?

[Barolt]

How are you directing it less at DeMar when you're directly bringing him up in all your criticisms. I mean look at your last post



How can not being "good enough to just put us on his back and win games singlehandedly" possibly be referred to as a "limitation", there are next to no players in the league who can do that, it's a team game and doing that requires generational talent or just an insanely abnormally productive game.

How is he going to bring out better shooting from his teammates? He did what he could, tried to score the basketball more. You can see that even CRF just said that DeRozan probably should've been even MORE aggressive trying to score since nobody else could really get anything going.

I'm just not sure what you're expecting from the guy at this point. Seems like with the impending max or near-max contract the expectations have been raised from be a productive, efficient all-star caliber SG to walk on water, turn water to wine, feed 5000 and come back from the dead.

One of those two posts is a general comment about DeMar, the other one is a specific post about last night's game.

I don't expect him to perform miracles, I do expect his upward trend to continue, and for him not to regress. If he's getting a max contract, I expect to see him become a better playmaker and better defender. I don't see how either of those would be a miracle.

[Cross]

But again, everyone was having a bad game and Lowry being one of our two "go to" players was playing ultra aggressive, as he knows DeMar cannot do it on his own. If the team had it going and he was playing that way then yes it can be described as "selfish hero-ball", but when the teams as a whole (save DD) is sucking then it's doing what he can to help the team win. If everyone is shooting poorly who would you rather take the shots, your best players or the role players? Again the context being last nights game. What is Casey going to do? Bench one of the only players that could help the team win or let him play his way out of the same rut the whole team was seemingly in?

Casey is supposed to bench ALL starters and let the second/third stringers to show if they are capable to bring in some positives. If it's getting close game - fine, starters might try to make final push in the 4th quarter. If it's not - perfect training camp for youngsters to get taste of reality.

massive fail from coaching perspective to keep starters on court while playing on like 20% EFFORT potential (DD being the only one somewhere around 50%).

[CalgaryRapsFan]

But again, everyone was having a bad game and Lowry being one of our two "go to" players was playing ultra aggressive, as he knows DeMar cannot do it on his own. If the team had it going and he was playing that way then yes it can be described as "selfish hero-ball", but when the teams as a whole (save DD) is sucking then it's doing what he can to help the team win. If everyone is shooting poorly who would you rather take the shots, your best players or the role players? Again the context being last nights game. What is Casey going to do? Bench one of the only players that could help the team win or let him play his way out of the same rut the whole team was seemingly in?

I'm not trying to derail the thread into a discussion about Lowry, but you keep wavering between a general conversation and last night's game against Denver (which becomes a Lowry discussion).

If a go-to player is having an amazing, can't-miss type of night, then go ahead and carry the team for a quarter/half/game. There's no point forcing your own game selfishly, when you're having an atrocious shooting night, no matter who you are. It's more about how your "go to" guy is playing, beyond just the fact that shots aren't dropping.

Lowry should have used his dribble-penetration abilities to create easy/open scoring chances for his teammates. His decision making was terrible, from pull-up hail-mary 3's to dribble-driving 1-on-3, from committing ticky-tack frustration fouls to getting T'd up for complaining to the refs as if it's their fault you're having a bad night.

He was awful. I get it, that happens. However, the truly good players realize when they're having a bad night and don't force their game. Instead, they find other ways to contribute to the team, to help them win. Lowry put himself ahead of the team last night, on a night when he clearly didn't have it. That's not what a leader should do. That's not what a star should do.

To try and bring this back to DeRozan, there have been games when he's been just as guilty of that as Lowry. Thankfully, this season, DeRozan's game seems to have matured to the point that he understands when he needs to try and do something other than score, more often than not.

[iblastoff]

How are you directing it less at DeMar when you're directly bringing him up in all your criticisms. I mean look at your last post



How can not being "good enough to just put us on his back and win games singlehandedly" possibly be referred to as a "limitation", there are next to no players in the league who can do that, it's a team game and doing that requires generational talent or just an insanely abnormally productive game.

How is he going to bring out better shooting from his teammates? He did what he could, tried to score the basketball more. You can see that even CRF just said that DeRozan probably should've been even MORE aggressive trying to score since nobody else could really get anything going.

I'm just not sure what you're expecting from the guy at this point. Seems like with the impending max or near-max contract the expectations have been raised from be a productive, efficient all-star caliber SG to walk on water, turn water to wine, feed 5000 and come back from the dead.

havent you heard? he expects derozan to average as many assists per game as steph curry this season! why? because a shooting guard from 2002 did it once so why shouldn't DD?

[Chr1s1anL]

Congrats on the player of the month #ProveEm

[Barolt]

havent you heard? he expects derozan to average as many assists per game as steph curry this season! why? because a shooting guard from 2002 did it once so why shouldn't DD?

I'm done with this thread. When DeMar's supporters think I'm asking him to walk on water to say that 6 assist per game is in reach for him, we've reached the point of ridiculousness. 6 assists per game is an insane ask, really?

[JWash]

I'm done with this thread. When DeMar's supporters think I'm asking him to walk on water to say that 6 assist per game is in reach for him, we've reached the point of ridiculousness. 6 assists per game is an insane ask, really?

Dude 6 assists per game is a lot for a 2-guard. Even Vince never averaged that many, Kobe did it twice (exactly 6.0) in his career. Hell Lowry is averaging 6 assist per game right now...

This is an insane ask.

[Barolt]

Dude 6 assists per game is a lot for a 2-guard. Even Vince never averaged that many, Kobe did it twice (exactly 6.0) in his career. Hell Lowry is averaging 6 assist per game right now...

This is an insane ask.

It's about a 20-25% increase in his assist rate, given his minutes stay where they are. It would be an impressive improvement, but not impossible IMO.