Everything Derozan

[Barolt]

A passionate discussion indeed.

I'm convinced that Demar will be re-signed (not even sure it will be at the max, knowing Masai).

A few people will be upset (even offended - lol), but who cares.

Demar will be back. Casey will be back. Book it!


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Not upset. Not offended either. I think this is a worthwhile discussion because it has long-reaching effects on the organization.

DeMar probably will be back, that doesn't make this discussion not worth having.

[ogi]

Overall, how do the Toronto Raptors keep improving as a basketball team?

(1) What made us competitive in the playoffs?

- Rebounding
- Interior defense
- JV individual performance
- Biyombo
- Lowry's impact on the court
- CoJo's dominance over backup point guards

(2) What hurt us in the playoffs?

- Inefficient guard play
- Inconsistent three point shooting
- Lack of generating open three point shots
- Under utilization of JV
- ISO basketball reliance
- Lack of a second power forward
- Carroll playing at 50%
- Inconsistent perimeter defense

(3) Holistically, what team skills do we need to improve on for us to become a better playoff team?

- We need to be better with our perimeter defense
- We need more shooters, specifically at the wings
- Our offense is stagnant and ISO heavy and needs to improve

I think those three bullets do a good job of directing what we should be doing in the offseason to become a better team. Does anyone have any issues with the above?




Does DD's individual skill set improve any of those areas? No.

Actually, you can easily argue that he is the problem for all of those area in which we need to improve as a team.




Therefor, resigning DD to any contract, is not good for the team, because he does not bring any skills to the table which we need to improve on as a team.



This is perhaps oversimplified, but I wanted to take a step back to bring perspective into the argument.

Does anyone have any issue with any part of this argument? Is there any holes or missing connectors between the logic (I ask because I know I'm bad at connecting information)?

How about what made us successful overall in the season as well? Paint penetration by low turnover gaurds leading to wide open shots? Generating free throws ?
Our offense can incorporate more movement and better overall usage of our players without being completely overhauled.

[Barolt]

How about what made us successful overall in the season as well? Paint penetration by low turnover gaurds leading to wide open shots? Generating free throws ?
Our offense can incorporate more movement and better overall usage of our players without being completely overhauled.

What made us successful in the regular season was Lowry's dominance combined with our bench beating up on opposing benches.

Had little to do with DeMar.

[ogi]

What made us successful in the regular season was Lowry's dominance combined with our bench beating up on opposing benches.

Had little to do with DeMar.

Obviously Lowry was the main reason we were successful. But demar contributed as well. I'm not arguing that Derozan was the reason we were successful but his improved efficiency and approach to the game definitely helped

[Barolt]

From @KevinDing with us @br_radio on #Lakers: “There’s a lot of presumption about Derozan and I’m told the Lakers aren’t that high on him"

— Noah Coslov (@NoahCoslov) May 29, 2016

Apparently, the Lakers might not be interested in DeMar anyways.

[ogi]

What made us successful in the regular season was Lowry's dominance combined with our bench beating up on opposing benches.

Had little to do with DeMar.

I'd also argue that our defensive overhaul and much better rebounding did a lot to help

[Barolt]

Obviously Lowry was the main reason we were successful. But demar contributed as well. I'm not arguing that Derozan was the reason we were successful but his improved efficiency and approach to the game definitely helped

I think DeMar has rode Lowry's coattails a lot these last few years. The stats back this up.

This concerns me because Lowry's 31 and a free agent next year. If we max DeMar, does that mean we have to pay Lowry whatever he wants just to make sure DeMar isn't a wasted asset?

[SkywalkerAC]

How about what made us successful overall in the season as well? Paint penetration by low turnover gaurds leading to wide open shots? Generating free throws ?
Our offense can incorporate more movement and better overall usage of our players without being completely overhauled.

Right? Plus, we did extremely well despite lacking elite shooting to complement our dribble-drive game. If we can up our shooting outlets, DeMar's drives become that much more valuable/difficult to stop.

[ogi]

I think DeMar has rode Lowry's coattails a lot these last few years. The stats back this up.

This concerns me because Lowry's 31 and a free agent next year. If we max DeMar, does that mean we have to pay Lowry whatever he wants just to make sure DeMar isn't a wasted asset?

The whole damn team rode his coattails. The man has had a top 10 in the nba type season. Without Lowry this team isn't nearly as good as its been. And that's a fallacy. We can max demar and still turn his contract into other assets if that's what we choose to do.

[SkywalkerAC]

The whole damn team rode his coattails. The man has had a top 10 in the nba type season. Without Lowry this team isn't nearly as good as its been. And that's a fallacy. We can max demar and still turn his contract into other assets if that's what we choose to do.

And yes, we probably should give Lowry a hefty contract, not because DeMar needs him, but because he's a great player and that's the type of shit you can do when you play above the cap instead of piddling around beneath it.

Big contracts have risks, but not nearly as much when you're not selling the farm to obtain them (see Knicks/Nets).

[OldSkoolCool]

Ok let's look at these questions

How about what made us successful overall in the season as well?

Lowry+Bench

That literally is the single reason why we set a franchise record in wins

How does DD help the Lowry+bench unit? (oh ya, by not being on it)

Paint penetration by low turnover gaurds leading to wide open shots?

JV. Low turnover post presence that easily replaces perimeter penetration. Do you not disagree?

Generating free throws ?

DD's 9 FTA per game may be offset by a few more FT's that is likely to come with an increase in JV's usage. I do not think the 5-6 free throws per game we lose if DD is not around is going to make a difference in how the Raptors perform as a team.

Our offense can incorporate more movement and better overall usage of our players without being completely overhauled.

Our offense looked good with good ball movement when DD was not on the floor. So this is also a great reason to not have DD.

[ogi]

And yes, we probably should give Lowry a hefty contract, not because DeMar needs him, but because he's a great player and that's the type of shit you can do when you play above the cap instead of piddling around beneath it.

Big contracts have risks, but not nearly as much when you're not selling the farm to obtain them (see Knicks/Nets).

Exactly. Masai has put this team in a position where they can still choose to improve in more than one way and no matter what he does with demar's contract we're not locked into one path.

[Axel]

A passionate discussion indeed.

I'm convinced that Demar will be re-signed (not even sure it will be at the max, knowing Masai).

A few people will be upset (even offended - lol), but who cares.

Demar will be back. Casey will be back. Book it!

Demar will very likely be back because that is the easy, safe decision. Doesn't make it the right one.

Same with Casey.

[Gambino]

I'm just wondering like, most people would agree that the reason we lost to Cleveland was a talent deficit right? So why would we deliberately lower our talent level by letting DeRozan leave for nothing?

The only argument that I've seen to not retain him is that he would hamstring us financially, but I don't think that's the case. First of all we don't actually know how much he's going to get paid yet, but for argument's sake let's say he's going to make about 25% of the salary cap over the life of his deal. In the new cap world we're entering, how is that untradeable for a productive all-star in his prime?

Case in point, Andrea Bargnani. Now Andrea was no all-star, in fact he was complete garbage, injury prone and useless in every way imaginable. He was traded for what turned out to be a lottery pick by Masai when he was making about 20% of the salary cap in 2013. Now someone who's totally down on DeRozan should be able to admit that DeRozan's value and reputation as a player around the league is at a much higher level than Andrea's so why wouldn't we be able to recoup value for him in a deal?

So at that point what's the downside of paying him, barring catastrophic injury - but that would be the case for anyone? Right now he's a key piece on a team that just went to the conference finals and won 10 playoff games, more than even the MVP Rose-era Bulls ever won in a single playoffs. Worst case things don't pan out and you can flip him for value. Best case you keep him and add another high level player via trade or sign and trade either this year or down the line and build a winner, or even include DeRozan himself in a package for a superstar if the opportunity presents himself.

I'm just not seeing any logic in letting him walk, like at all. The people suggesting that are just speaking out of emotion rather than logic, sorry to say it but it's the truth. It would be incredibly dumb. Forget optics, I'm talking just strictly retaining assets, retaining value and retaining talent it makes no sense.

[ogi]

Ok let's look at these questions



Lowry+Bench

That literally is the single reason why we set a franchise record in wins

How does DD help the Lowry+bench unit? (oh ya, by not being on it)



JV. Low turnover post presence that easily replaces perimeter penetration. Do you not disagree?



DD's 9 FTA per game may be offset by a few more FT's that is likely to come with an increase in JV's usage. I do not think the 5-6 free throws per game we lose if DD is not around is going to make a difference in how the Raptors perform as a team.



Our offense looked good with good ball movement when DD was not on the floor. So this is also a great reason to not have DD.

1. Lowry plus bench is more of a testament to how good lowry is. Demar plus bench was still better than all bench units which were catastrophic. So saying that demar helped that lineup by not being on it is just not true.

2. Low turnover post presence on lower usage and smaller role in the offence is one thing. Can that be replicated with higher usage and a much much larger role in the offense? Who knows, but it's by no means a guarantee. Really an assumption.

3. Another assumption. Our high free throw rate (and conversion rate) was a huge reason our offense was highly rated for the season. That's a fact. Can that be sustained by other means? Maybe but you really don't know if JV will be shooting free throws at the rate that your assuming.

4. Look and effectiveness are two different things. Most of our best offensive rated lineups include Demar. Regular Season and playoffs.

Now that being said I'm all for including JV in the offense a lot more and particularly after this postseason it would be a crime not to. I also think that we have the personnel for it and all it really requires is a small change in approach.