Everything Derozan

[Gambino]

It is impossible for Demar's career trajectory to be a linear slope, so he has to eventually plateau. Why is it dumb to consider that his will come after he already made significant strides (that took 7 years to manifest)?

You did want to talk only of facts. Fact is Demar will plateau. It's only a matter of when.

Fact is you don't know when, so saying it year after year hoping that you'll be right eventually is "dumb" and an exercise in futility. I suppose eventually you will be right, but there's nothing to suggest that it will be this coming season.

[Gambino]

Thought we were sticking to facts?

When people who have questions about DeMar make statements about broader strokes, and things that they see, we're told to stick to the facts.

But half the points made by DeMar's unconditional supports tend to be about nebulous, unquantifiable and non-qualitative things that are impossible to measure.

Then if I do stick to facts and statistics, people tell me I spend too much time on nothing but statistics.

It's like your whole argument is built to invalidate the arguments people like me and Axel make, instead of actually addressing our points.

My whole argument is built to invalidate this idea that's being presented that DeRozan is somehow toxic to the team.

[Barolt]

Fact is you don't know when, so saying it year after year hoping that you'll be right eventually is "dumb" and an exercise in futility. I suppose eventually you will be right, but there's nothing to suggest that it will be this coming season.

You know, except for the fact that historically ball-dominant cutting shooting guards peak at ~27, which is where DeMar is right now.

[Barolt]

My whole argument is built to invalidate this idea that's being presented that DeRozan is somehow toxic to the team.

I didn't say DeMar is toxic to the team. I just don't believe that his value is, or was this year, as ridiculously high as some put it.

Some people think that he was 1b to Lowry's 1a, which is completely laughable.

[Gambino]

You know, except for the fact that historically ball-dominant cutting shooting guards peak at ~27, which is where DeMar is right now.

Peak in terms of statistical production maybe, but not necessarily mentality, reading the game and things like veteran savvy.

I don't think anyone's expecting DeMar to hit .200 WS/48 or put up 25-5-5 next year. It's more a matter of improving decision making and playmaking ability, which frankly isn't rare for a player entering their prime.

[Axel]

Fact is you don't know when, so saying it year after year hoping that you'll be right eventually is "dumb" and an exercise in futility. I suppose eventually you will be right, but there's nothing to suggest that it will be this coming season.

Ah, so you know everything about my posting history of 6 years from the month you've been here? Fascinating.

Fact is that until last season, Demar did seem to plateau for the most part. It was later in his career than normal, so the fact that it happened once at a later stage doesn't mean it will happen twice (or more). So very solid rationale to suggest that it's here now. Your theory of "don't doubt Demar" is much more baseless.

[Chr1s1anL]

lol fabricating? the goal posts for this season was moved PLENTY of times, to the point where people werent even happy with a 2nd round playoff win (because 'miami sucks!').

that is the exact same thing happening with derozan and his trajectory in terms of expectations and improvement. people are lying to themselves in order to appear right, whether its in a civilized manner or not.

i don't even like derozan all that much. and who knows if he will actually grow or not. but one things for sure, the amount of really asinine posts about the guy are 100% on the rise.

Pure gold

[Axel]

My whole argument is built to invalidate this idea that's being presented that DeRozan is somehow toxic to the team.

Which neither Barolt or I have said. So are you just arguing phantom posts and quoting us for the fun of it?

How exactly do you get from "Demar has likely plateaued" to "Demar is toxic to this team"? Careful you don't pull a muscle with leaps like that.

[Gambino]

I didn't say DeMar is toxic to the team. I just don't believe that his value is, or was this year, as ridiculously high as some put it.

Some people think that he was 1b to Lowry's 1a, which is completely laughable.

Well 1b in terms of what? Role or being the best player? In terms of role he was 1a considering his usage, but clearly he was the #2 next to Lowry in terms of our best players.

You don't need to be a #1 to be worth a max contract, I just explained that earlier.

[Axel]

Pure gold

Dude, use the like button if you have nothing to contribute.

[Gambino]

Which neither Barolt or I have said. So are you just arguing phantom posts and quoting us for the fun of it?

How exactly do you get from "Demar has likely plateaued" to "Demar is toxic to this team"? Careful you don't pull a muscle with leaps like that.

I didn't put toxic in quotations, just referring to it as the general narrative. And there was a discussion before the 'plateau' one from Barolt on how DeRozan doesn't really fit on many teams and how he's ball dominant and plays no defense.

And no need for the insults man.

[Barolt]

Ah, so you know everything about my posting history of 6 years from the month you've been here? Fascinating.

Fact is that until last season, Demar did seem to plateau for the most part. It was later in his career than normal, so the fact that it happened once at a later stage doesn't mean it will happen twice (or more). So very solid rationale to suggest that it's here now. Your theory of "don't doubt Demar" is much more baseless.

More to this point, this argument that he's 'gotten better every year in the league'... has he?

His career PER: 12.5, 14.5, 12.8, 14.7, 18.4, 17.4, 21.5. Ignoring his rookie year as the baseline, that's up 4 times, down twice.

His career WS/48: .066, .055, .054, .075, .141, .090, .169. Again, rookie year for baseline, that's up 3 times, down 3 times.

His career TS%: 55.4%, 53.0%, 50.3%, 52.3%, 53.2%, 51.0%, 55.0%. Up 3 times, down 3 times.

Career BPM: -2.8, -2.4, -2.8, -1.9, 0.7, -1.6, 1.4. Up 4 times, down twice.

Career VORP: -.3, -.3, -.5, .1, 2.0, .2, 2.4. Up 3 times, down twice, unchanged once.

So, by any advanced statistics measuring, he hasn't improved unconditionally. More improvement than down years, but there have been some down years.

[Gambino]

More to this point, this argument that he's 'gotten better every year in the league'... has he?

His career PER: 12.5, 14.5, 12.8, 14.7, 18.4, 17.4, 21.5. Ignoring his rookie year as the baseline, that's up 4 times, down twice.

His career WS/48: .066, .055, .054, .075, .141, .090, .169. Again, rookie year for baseline, that's up 3 times, down 3 times.

His career TS%: 55.4%, 53.0%, 50.3%, 52.3%, 53.2%, 51.0%, 55.0%. Up 3 times, down 3 times.

Career BPM: -2.8, -2.4, -2.8, -1.9, 0.7, -1.6, 1.4. Up 4 times, down twice.

Career VORP: -.3, -.3, -.5, .1, 2.0, .2, 2.4. Up 3 times, down twice, unchanged once.

So, by any advanced statistics measuring, he hasn't improved unconditionally. More improvement than down years, but there have been some down years.

You're including a year (last year) where he played hurt and was recovering from an injury. Also I'm not sure why you would post all that without including his usage. Because while he did have better advanced metrics in his rookie year than the subsequent two years, it was largely because of the miniscule role he had as a rookie compared to after Bosh left.

[Barolt]

You're including a year (last year) where he played hurt and was recovering from an injury. Also I'm not sure why you would post all that without including his usage. Because while he did have better advanced metrics in his rookie year than the subsequent two years, it was largely because of the miniscule role he had as a rookie compared to after Bosh left.

I'm including his entire career, because the narrative around here has been that he 'improved every year'. You wanted to stick to facts... those are facts.

[Axel]

I didn't put toxic in quotations, just referring to it as the general narrative. And there was a discussion before the 'plateau' one from Barolt on how DeRozan doesn't really fit on many teams and how he's ball dominant and plays no defense.

And no need for the insults man.

Neither of us said it and yes you used it as the justification for your complete dismissal of our views. Quotations marks or not, it makes no sense.