Everything Derozan

[Barolt]

I didn't put toxic in quotations, just referring to it as the general narrative. And there was a discussion before the 'plateau' one from Barolt on how DeRozan doesn't really fit on many teams and how he's ball dominant and plays no defense.

And no need for the insults man.

He is ball dominant and a bad defender. Neither of those is questionable. He also has fit issues on many teams.

None of those statements are saying that he's toxic.

[Chr1s1anL]

Gambino your wasting your time with Axel and Barolt. Like someone said earlier DD could be 5th in MVP voting and they would still continue with the same narritive.

[Barolt]

Gambino your wasting your time with Axel and Barolt. Like someone said earlier DD could be 5th in MVP voting and they would still continue with the same narritive.

Did DeMar get a single MVP vote? Can we wait until he does before we start posing hypotheticals on how we'd react to such an event?

Or are we just throwing personal attacks around for the fun of it?

[Axel]

Gambino your wasting your time with Axel and Barolt. Like someone said earlier DD could be 5th in MVP voting and they would still continue with the same narritive.

Another high quality post. If you have nothing to add....it should be pretty clear that comments like this have no place here.

[Gambino]

I'm including his entire career, because the narrative around here has been that he 'improved every year'. You wanted to stick to facts... those are facts.

I think what's more accurate to say is that he's improved steadily over his career. Maybe year over year that hasn't been statistically identifiable but a clear trend is there.



I'm not a stats major but usually when people talk about improvement over time they look at a trend instead of saying it went down and then it went up. Did a quick linear regression on those numbers to get a visual.

[Barolt]

I think what's more accurate to say is that he's improved steadily over his career. Maybe year over year that hasn't been statistically identifiable but a clear trend is there.



I'm not a stats major but usually when people talk about improvement over time they look at a trend instead of saying it went down and then it went up. Did a quick linear regression on those numbers to get a visual.

That's fair, and completely accurate.

Also a completely different argument than saying he's gotten better every year.

No one denies he's better now than he was when he came into the league(what that shows). However, that isn't terribly predictive. Almost every NBA player ever who played more than 5 years improved from the age of 20 to the age of 27. What happens AFTER 27 is where things get complicated, generally speaking.

[Chr1s1anL]

Another high quality post. If you have nothing to add....it should be pretty clear that comments like this have no place here.

Can you tell me what was so wrong about my post? I dont think a post like deserve an infraction. I've seen a lot worse. Get I can get more clarity on that?

[Gambino]

That's fair, and completely accurate.

Also a completely different argument than saying he's gotten better every year.

No one denies he's better now than he was when he came into the league(what that shows). However, that isn't terribly predictive. Almost every NBA player ever who played more than 5 years improved from the age of 20 to the age of 27. What happens AFTER 27 is where things get complicated, generally speaking.

Even if DeMar just stays exactly where he is he's worth a max contract. Just needs to bring the same play to the playoffs earlier.

[Axel]

Even if DeMar just stays exactly where he is he's worth a max contract. Just needs to bring the same play to the playoffs earlier.

Which would mean he plateaued. Exactly what I was suggesting earlier.

[Barolt]

Even if DeMar just stays exactly where he is he's worth a max contract. Just needs to bring the same play to the playoffs earlier.

And that's fine if that's your opinion, but it's not a universally shared one.(and not even around here). Many major NBA pundits question DeMar's worthiness for the max contract.

I'm ok with people having differing opinions, but we can disagree respectfully. In this thread, the pro-DeMar arguments are sometimes borderline zealotry with their refusal to acknowledge the questions that his skillset brings.

[Gambino]

Which would mean he plateaued. Exactly what I was suggesting earlier.

Sure, except he still CAN improve I was just pointing out that even if he doesn't he's still worth the max. The type of improvements we can expect now probably won't be massive leaps in advanced stats, and moreso improvements in reading and understanding of the game. DeMar himself even said that this offseason he's not so focused on improving his own production, rather trying to figure out ways to make his teammates better.

[Gambino]

And that's fine if that's your opinion, but it's not a universally shared one.(and not even around here). Many major NBA pundits question DeMar's worthiness for the max contract.

I'm ok with people having differing opinions, but we can disagree respectfully. In this thread, the pro-DeMar arguments are sometimes borderline zealotry with their refusal to acknowledge the questions that his skillset brings.

How is it zealotry? I'm looking at advanced stats and numbers and production.

Take the name DeMar DeRozan away for a second.

Please tell me how a 26 year old all-star player who averages 23 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists as the primary scoring option on a 56 win conference finals team putting up a 22 PER and 10 win shares doesn't get and isn't a worth a max contract?

[Barolt]

Sure, except he still CAN improve I was just pointing out that even if he doesn't he's still worth the max. The type of improvements we can expect now probably won't be massive leaps in advanced stats, and moreso improvements in reading and understanding of the game. DeMar himself even said that this offseason he's not so focused on improving his own production, rather trying to figure out ways to make his teammates better.

That's the part some of us disagree on.

By the way... there's room between 'toxic' and 'automatically worthy of a max'.

I don't think DeMar is useless, I just don't think he's a max player on a championship contender, and I worry about his value in the later years of that contract if he has a decline as he approaches 30.

[Axel]

Sure, except he still CAN improve I was just pointing out that even if he doesn't he's still worth the max. The type of improvements we can expect now probably won't be massive leaps in advanced stats, and moreso improvements in reading and understanding of the game. DeMar himself even said that this offseason he's not so focused on improving his own production, rather trying to figure out ways to make his teammates better.

He could but he would be a massive outlier in doing so. Perhaps you'd be more convincing if you provided past players as evidence of multi year later development rather than "don't doubt Demar".

[Barolt]

How is it zealotry? I'm looking at advanced stats and numbers and production.

Take the name DeMar DeRozan away for a second.

Please tell me how a 26 year old all-star player who averages 23 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists as the primary scoring option on a 56 win conference finals team putting up a 22 PER and 10 win shares doesn't get and isn't a worth a max contract?

Because that same player also had a team that was better with him off the court, had one of the worst high-usage playoff runs of all-time, and couldn't carry the offense when the other All-Star on his team wasn't on the court, as the team got worse in those situations.

Remove the name DeMar DeRozan for a second.

Would you want a player who, in the playoffs, sees his usage increase as his assist rate and efficiency decrease, and refuses to defer to his teammates despite facing defenses designed to shut him personally down? Would you want to pay the max to a player who, in 7 years, has only had a positive on/off differential once?