Everything Derozan

[The Claw Reborn]

The guys at ESPN, at least, are big on OnCourt impact. But, people more focused on how a player impacts his team's record than his individual skills don't disparage "volume scorers" in general. It's inefficient volume scorers that they often don't rate as highly. You don't see advanced analytics having a problem with LeBron or Westbrook or Steph Curry - they are always at or near the top of RPM.

He doesn't shoot the three well or spread the court for teammates. He gets trapped and commits a lot of turnovers for both himself and teammates and is not a good passer for a guard. Most importantly his defence is way below what it should be (although I blame most of that on mollycoddling by Casey and Ujiri)

Over-all, I would say his rankings are reasonable, given that he is a marquee player who sells tickets and merchandise. As far as generating wins, I would rank him lower.

Spot on.

Let's brace ourselves as He will probably shoot more now that he just got spite on once again, lol. Before, his teammates had gotten the ball at the 20th second mark, this season most likely at the 23rd second.
Help us all.

[BrieflySpeaking]

If this logic applies in the 90's they'd probably rank 3D Dennis Scott ahead of guys like Allen Iverson. Lol. What a joke.

Nope. In his heyday, Iverson ranked at or near the top of the league in Plus/Minus. Like Demar, AI had very high usage and, when you adjust his over-all shooting perecentage for his era, was only a slightly more efficient scoring on his own shots than Demar.

However, AI was a very good passer/play-maker, an excellent defender. Most of all, he ran the court hard always with a nose for the ball. Creating many extra critical possessions for his team.

That sounds a lot more like Kyle than DeMar and, is likely the reason Iverson and Lowry are RPM stars as well as box score stars.

[The Claw Reborn]

Nope. In his heyday, Iverson ranked at or near the top of the league in Plus/Minus. Like Demar, AI had very high usage and, when you adjust his over-all shooting perecentage for his era, was only a slightly more efficient scoring on his own shots than Demar.

However, AI was a very good passer/play-maker, an excellent defender. Most of all, he ran the court hard always with a nose for the ball. Creating many extra critical possessions for his team.

That sounds a lot more like Kyle than DeMar and, is likely the reason Iverson and Lowry are RPM stars as well as box score stars.

Another great point.

It's 2000 fucking 17 and this team has a high usage player who seldom passes and still can't shoot the three while other teams have evolved. It's a no brainer that this coach how inept he is offensively cannot innovate and further his evolution because he is so restricted with the main cog of his team who only operates just within the 15-20 feet area.

Defensively, the team it seems is always like walking on a limp because one of their...yet again Main Cog...cannot defend his own position. Other are forced to pick up the slack.

But yet again Scoring average, All Star Selection, yearly Drew League Main Attraction are most important for most.

Making your teammates better can wait...he still has to "prove" something that he belongs..."he got this" --- his famost mantra straight out of Compton.

Help us all.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I'm really trying to understand on which planet Iverson was an excellent defender. Steals do not equal good defense. Monta Ellis used to get a ton of steals as well.

AI had a negative DBPM his entire career. He played on some excellent defensive teams in the early 2000s in Philly, sure, but that had more to do with the personnel around him than his own defense. Even DeMar is capable of being the main man on an elite defensive team and propelling them to about league average offensively, which we saw him do for 21 games last year post ASB.

[DanH]

I'm really trying to understand on which planet Iverson was an excellent defender. Steals do not equal good defense. Monta Ellis used to get a ton of steals as well.

AI had a negative DBPM his entire career. He played on some excellent defensive teams in the early 2000s in Philly, sure, but that had more to do with the personnel around him than his own defense. Even DeMar is capable of being the main man on an elite defensive team and propelling them to about league average offensively, which we saw him do for 21 games last year post ASB.

Yeah, Iverson was no great defender. But in his prime, he was roughly a league average defender, and was a monster in terms of offensive impact. While DeMar is a well below average defender, and doesn't have nearly the impact offensively that Iverson did (based on BPM). Like, Iverson's lowest OBPM in his first 10 NBA seasons was +3.1. DeRozan's career high at this point is +2.7 (while Iverson's was +6). Meanwhile, DeRozan's career DBPM (and it lines up with his numbers over the past few seasons) is -1.4, while Iverson averaged out to -1 over his entire career, and from his sophomore season to his age 29 season averaged a -0.4, a number DeRozan has never posted in even a single season (his career high being -0.7, and it's an outlier).

So I think it's fair to say that was a difference between the two players, just certainly not to the extent suggested above. Meanwhile, their offensive similarities are being exaggerated a great deal, IMO. Iverson changed games in ways DeRozan has yet to prove he can do.

[special1]

Yeah, Iverson was no great defender. But in his prime, he was roughly a league average defender, and was a monster in terms of offensive impact. While DeMar is a well below average defender, and doesn't have nearly the impact offensively that Iverson did (based on BPM). Like, Iverson's lowest OBPM in his first 10 NBA seasons was +3.1. DeRozan's career high at this point is +2.7 (while Iverson's was +6). Meanwhile, DeRozan's career DBPM (and it lines up with his numbers over the past few seasons) is -1.4, while Iverson averaged out to -1 over his entire career, and from his sophomore season to his age 29 season averaged a -0.4, a number DeRozan has never posted in even a single season (his career high being -0.7, and it's an outlier).

So I think it's fair to say that was a difference between the two players, just certainly not to the extent suggested above. Meanwhile, their offensive similarities are being exaggerated a great deal, IMO. Iverson changed games in ways DeRozan has yet to prove he can do.

So Iverson was an average defender, not an excellent one, as was declared above correct? I also think Demar becomes an average defender when you compare him to other SGs (not well below average as you declare), but i digress.

I think anyone comparing Iverson to Demar is missing the point.

I think the point was that certain players are at a disadvantage when it comes to impact stats......Sometimes the stats don't actually line up with reality when it comes to impact on the court (how teams account for certain players).

You put an average defender on Demar and he scores 40+......End of story. You don't double team Demar and he scores 30+.....End of story. This is indeed impact because this allows other players to benefit from this attention, in theory. I'm sure you'll pull some stats to show this as irrelevant, but at some point common sense is enough.

Demar has changed games in ways that you have yet to understand, obviously. This may be why he was all-NBA and has 3 all-star appearances in the last 4 years. Something tells me this will continue for the forseeable future. ProveEm?

[DanH]

So Iverson was an average defender, not an excellent one, as was declared above correct? I also think Demar becomes an average defender when you compare him to other SGs (not well below average as you declare), but i digress.

I think anyone comparing Iverson to Demar is missing the point.

I think the point was that certain players are at a disadvantage when it comes to impact stats......Sometimes the stats don't actually line up with reality when it comes to impact on the court (how teams account for certain players).

You put an average defender on Demar and he scores 40+......End of story. You don't double team Demar and he scores 30+.....End of story. This is indeed impact because this allows other players to benefit from this attention, in theory. I'm sure you'll pull some stats to show this as irrelevant, but at some point common sense is enough.

Demar has changed games in ways that you have yet to understand, obviously. This may be why he was all-NBA and has 3 all-star appearances in the last 4 years. Something tells me this will continue for the forseeable future. ProveEm?

Yeah, I've been an advocate of DeMar's in his current role based on my own fictitious separation of basketball into production and impact, a shift in thinking I had somewhere around winter-spring of the 2015-16 season. Impact being the stuff that doesn't show up on the score sheet but helps teams win, and production being the generation of actual points, rebounds, etc. DeMar is a tremendous producer. The entire offence is built around him for that reason. But he doesn't swing games on his own - he creates that issue for other teams' defences, such that you can surround him with lesser offensive players, who do simpler, lesser things production-wise, but also do other things that help the team win. This extends from role players like Patterson, for example, who can't do much of anything if the defence pays attention to them, but can spread the floor, and defend, and turn the game, working around the fringes. I extend it even to Lowry, who is limited in his ability to produce - not like a role player, but to a 2nd fiddle role offensively, as he tends to break down if he has to be the primary option for very long - but who impacts the game like few other players in the league, in ways beyond the restrictions of primary scorer.

DeMar is hugely important to the team, and is a very valuable player, because he's an elite producer who you can surround with players who can't carry that production by themselves. JV is a similar sort of player - he'll never be a high impact guy, in all likelihood, neither in a role playing or star capacity, but he is a very good producer of efficient points and rebounds. Impact stats don't capture their contributions entirely, because the team is structured around their production being there as a baseline - that production is what teams gameplan against, and when it falters (as DeRozan's has in portions of recent playoff runs), it can be disastrous to the team, as all those guys who measure well in impact stats tend to be unplayable (or far less effective) without those key production guys to drive the team's raw countable successes.

That said, DeMar is not an average defender, not if we are talking impact stats. He ranked 78th of 95 active SG's in DRPM last year, with a grade (-2) well below the average SG (~ -0.7). And all I was saying was that in terms of impact stats, Iverson graded out significantly better than DeMar does. Both play as guards, so would see the same group skew - meaning even if you insist that DeRozan is average for a SG with his score (he's not), then Iverson would be well above average.

Not sure why you think you need to attack me as some DeMar hater. I was a loud advocate of re-signing DeMar last summer, and lately have been an advocate of keeping roughly the same offensive system in place with DeMar as the centrepiece of it. He's not perfect, and you can't have him as your best player (in terms of star impact), but he's absolutely crucial to this team's construction.

[Chr1s1anL]

Nope. In his heyday, Iverson ranked at or near the top of the league in Plus/Minus. Like Demar, AI had very high usage and, when you adjust his over-all shooting perecentage for his era, was only a slightly more efficient scoring on his own shots than Demar.

However, AI was a very good passer/play-maker, an excellent defender. Most of all, he ran the court hard always with a nose for the ball. Creating many extra critical possessions for his team.

That sounds a lot more like Kyle than DeMar and, is likely the reason Iverson and Lowry are RPM stars as well as box score stars.

AI is not an excellent defender. He was good in passing lanes but not a good on ball defender. He has said it himself in many inteviews. That's why they surrounded him with guys that only played D and weren't that good on O. Which lead to his high usage.

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[LJ2]

What do you guys think about DeMar's trajectory and when do you think he peaks? When I compare him to other wings like PG for example, I don't think there is much of an argument that PG is the better player, but he's sort of peaked. DeMar with his work ethic seems to close the gap each season. Can he reach a player of PG's calibre?

[Chr1s1anL]

I'm really trying to understand on which planet Iverson was an excellent defender. Steals do not equal good defense. Monta Ellis used to get a ton of steals as well.

AI had a negative DBPM his entire career. He played on some excellent defensive teams in the early 2000s in Philly, sure, but that had more to do with the personnel around him than his own defense. Even DeMar is capable of being the main man on an elite defensive team and propelling them to about league average offensively, which we saw him do for 21 games last year post ASB.

Exactly, Sixers knew the weakness of their offensive star and made roster moves to accommodate them.

This is where my beef with JV is. JV is a good player but, defensively he leaves a lot to be desired. It's pretty obvious raps have decided to build around Deebo. If your going do that than you have to have the players around him be plus defenders just like Philly did with AI.

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[Chr1s1anL]

Yeah, Iverson was no great defender. But in his prime, he was roughly a league average defender, and was a monster in terms of offensive impact. While DeMar is a well below average defender, and doesn't have nearly the impact offensively that Iverson did (based on BPM). Like, Iverson's lowest OBPM in his first 10 NBA seasons was +3.1. DeRozan's career high at this point is +2.7 (while Iverson's was +6). Meanwhile, DeRozan's career DBPM (and it lines up with his numbers over the past few seasons) is -1.4, while Iverson averaged out to -1 over his entire career, and from his sophomore season to his age 29 season averaged a -0.4, a number DeRozan has never posted in even a single season (his career high being -0.7, and it's an outlier).

So I think it's fair to say that was a difference between the two players, just certainly not to the extent suggested above. Meanwhile, their offensive similarities are being exaggerated a great deal, IMO. Iverson changed games in ways DeRozan has yet to prove he can do.

Good post.

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[Chr1s1anL]

What do you guys think about DeMar's trajectory and when do you think he peaks? When I compare him to other wings like PG for example, I don't think there is much of an argument that PG is the better player, but he's sort of peaked. DeMar with his work ethic seems to close the gap each season. Can he reach a player of PG's calibre?

If he gets his 3 ball going I think so.

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[LJ2]

If he gets his 3 ball going I think so.

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Adding a reliable 3pt shot to his arsenal would be nice but I'd rather see him be a killer from mid range and have a better heads up game. Be able to take elite defenders like PG off the dribble, but be able to hit open players when there's nothing there or the double team comes. D. Wade in his prime was a monster and I think DeMar's game has some similar attributes. He needs to improve his handles and awareness.

[SkywalkerAC]

On the subject of AI and team composition, we really haven't seen him paired with a great wing shooter (like we know he needs) except for T-Ross, who he had good success with. Hopefully Powell and Miles can provide the shooting for DeMar to take another step as a distributor.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Nvm.