Everything Derozan

[Axel]

Nobody's said anything about the media being against us. We just objectively think the ranking is wrong.

Then why do the rankings of multiple media outlets all say similar things? Are they all wrong?

OR are people ignoring legit reasons?

Perhaps a mix of the two, but I'm leaning more to the latter.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

Then why do the rankings of multiple media outlets all say similar things? Are they all wrong?

OR are people ignoring legit reasons?

Perhaps a mix of the two, but I'm leaning more to the latter.

ESPN actually lowered DeRozan's ranking even though he had a better season. He ranked 30th last year, which is not far off of being correct.

Multiple rankings saying the same thing isn't really a good argument.

[Puffer]

...Multiple rankings saying the same thing isn't really a good argument.

Neither is multiple fans of the same player saying the same thing. ��

[golden]

ESPN actually lowered DeRozan's ranking even though he had a better season. He ranked 30th last year, which is not far off of being correct.

Multiple rankings saying the same thing isn't really a good argument.

I keep coming back to the same conclusion about these rankings, which is that DeMar's playoff performance drop-off and inconsistency is hurting the perception of his value. He doesn't give you 25-5-5 on 110 ORTG every night in the playoffs.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

I keep coming back to the same conclusion about these rankings, which is that DeMar's playoff performance drop-off and inconsistency is hurting the perception of his value. He doesn't give you 25-5-5 on 110 ORTG every night in the playoffs.

This might be part of it.

If they're using his playoff performances and incorporating that into his value then yeah he does deserve to take a hit, although he wasn't terrible in the playoffs last year, but certainly dropped off quite a lot.

The thing is the articles don't even talk about that in his ranking though.

[DanH]

This might be part of it.

If they're using his playoff performances and incorporating that into his value then yeah he does deserve to take a hit, although he wasn't terrible in the playoffs last year, but certainly dropped off quite a lot.

The thing is the articles don't even talk about that in his ranking though.

He wasn't historically terrible like the previous season, but that's a low bar to clear. He still posted a .062 WS/48, only a 104 ORTG (a 9 point drop from the RS), a PER of 16, and a negative BPM in the playoffs this year. For a guy who is supposed to be a star player, those are terrible playoff numbers.

His playoff performances (and Lowry's) are definitely factoring into these rankings.

[Chr1s1anL]

He wasn't historically terrible like the previous season, but that's a low bar to clear. He still posted a .062 WS/48, only a 104 ORTG (a 9 point drop from the RS), a PER of 16, and a negative BPM in the playoffs this year. For a guy who is supposed to be a star player, those are terrible playoff numbers.

His playoff performances (and Lowry's) are definitely factoring into these rankings.

Did Middleton have a better playoff showing than Deebo?

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[Shaolin Fantastic]

Did Middleton have a better playoff showing than Deebo?

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Middleton was actually pretty bad, he shot really poorly (49 TS%) but his raw stats (PPG, APG, RPG) were about the same as the regular season. The thing about being a role player is that if you play badly/worse you don't take as big of a hit for it from pundits/fans/analysts. It's the stars that get killed for playing badly (and rightfully so to some extent) because they're the driving forces of the team.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

He wasn't historically terrible like the previous season, but that's a low bar to clear. He still posted a .062 WS/48, only a 104 ORTG (a 9 point drop from the RS), a PER of 16, and a negative BPM in the playoffs this year. For a guy who is supposed to be a star player, those are terrible playoff numbers.

His playoff performances (and Lowry's) are definitely factoring into these rankings.

True, I should've said "as terrible" considering it was an improvement from the last 2 years.

[Chr1s1anL]

There is a bit of biasis when it comes to Deebo with these analytics guys. His success goes against everything they believe in. Deebo had a better season and playoffs then last year, got move down. Middleton was injured most of the year and didn't seem like he had an impressive 1st round series but is a head of deebo....

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[Chr1s1anL]

Middleton was actually pretty bad, he shot really poorly (49 TS%) but his raw stats (PPG, APG, RPG) were about the same as the regular season. The thing about being a role player is that if you play badly/worse you don't take as big of a hit for it from pundits/fans/analysts. It's the stars that get killed for playing badly (and rightfully so to some extent) because they're the driving forces of the team.

You make a very good point at the end. That's why it makes no sense to me why a guy like Middleton would ranked a head of Deebo.

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[DanH]

You make a very good point at the end. That's why it makes no sense to me why a guy like Middleton would ranked a head of Deebo.

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I agree with that sentiment, absolutely. Middleton should have been ranked lower than DeMar.

[Shaolin Fantastic]

There is a bit of biasis when it comes to Deebo with these analytics guys. His success goes against everything they believe in. Deebo had a better season and playoffs then last year, got move down. Middleton was injured most of the year and didn't seem like he had an impressive 1st round series but is a head of deebo....

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I agree there's some bias. It's going to be like that with any science. When there's someone who doesn't really fit the model, it can be frustrating for people who adhere closely to it. DD is one of those guys. Basically does everything "wrong". Doesn't shoot threes, loves mid-range, etc.

The thing is though there are aspects of DeRozan's game that are very good analytically. Free throws are the best shot in basketball and he gets to the line like crazy. The only problem is that they're dependent on officiating, but a trip to the line for an 80% shooter like DD is a 1.6 points/possession play. You need to shoot over 50% from 3 to get that kind of return. In that sense, his 8 trips to the free throw line a game (~4 possessions) are better than shooting 4 3s, even if he shot 50% from 3.

The other thing is the amount he drives to the basket and uses pick and roll. Spread pick and roll play is one of the best ways to get shooters open, because it collapses the defense. Houston spams this play like crazy and they have elite shooters all over the floor so it leads to a lot of of open and made triples.

The main things I want DD to work on are his passing skills, that's the main way he can improve and we can extract more value from him now. Going from a 4 assist a game guy to a 6-7 assist a game guy. He has the same ability to collapse the defense Harden does, but lacks that playmaking ability (he's improved here but could get a lot better). That's something I really wanna see him continue to get better at. Other than that, more consistent effort on D and cutting more and trying to play off Lowry/Delon with some spot up 3s from the corner could be nice too.

[KeonClark]

Crowder no, but Middleton above Demar doesn't bother me. He's a skilled player who's versatile and plays good defence.

Basketball is a team game and it's pointless to simply compare players as if it's 1-on-1 down at the Y. Larger context and DEFENCE are both huge knocks on Demar which would fairly limit his ranking. It seems like people are so determined to complain about the media rankings that they are willing to completely dismiss every reasonable criticism so that they can finally be left with either "the media is out to get us" or "the media doesn't know what they are talking about".

The league has had tons of skilled scorers over the years, it's easier to find someone to score than to find two-way players.

Why is it that we demand our Centers to be versatile enough to defend the rim and on the perimeter but he don't expect Demar to be hindered by his lack of versatility or flexibility? A one position scorer who can't defend - great specific skill set but ultimately a more limited player than a good two-way player.

I'm going to strongly disagree with the bolded. It's the reason those guys are paid the most. Sure lots of guys can SCORE, but how many can score 27 per game on a 50 win team? It's much harder than you make it out to be, or more guys would go do it and make 30 mil a year.

Middleton is good but he's also invisible for extended stretches of games or even seasons. DeMar is always very much impacting the game, positively or negatively, you know he's there. Ask any team who they're game planning for, who theyd rather have to start a franchise, who they'd rather have with the ball in their hands in the 4th, DeRozan or Middleton. These questions matter. Glue guys are great, once you have your demar derozan.

[Other Scott]

I just want to say I'm usually a massive supporter of Demar Derozan. But I do think we're introducing a bit of false equivalence with statements like DeMar DeRozan is the kind of guy you want to start your franchise. I think that's fine if you're aiming for your franchise to be the Raptors - a good 50 win team who gets 2-3 rounds into the playoffs each year but isn't a serious competitor for the championship unless something goes wrong.

But if you look at championship teams, wouldn't you say that Khris Middleton would fit into one of those better than DeMar? DeMar really only has value as a first or second option, and when it comes down to it he's not Kawhi Leonard or James Harden or Durant or Curry or has that level of efficiency that volume scorers on the championship teams do. And that's fine, there's only about 10 of those in the league and to win a championship in today's NBA you basically need 2 of them.

The reason that Demar gets a bad rap compared to these role players is that the role players add value to championship level teams as a 3rd or 4th option on offense without taking away from the defense. Demar does not.

Basically if you're aiming to be a good team, you can't have Middleton or Crowder in the DeMar role and expect to win 50 games. Demar is a great player and has that capability to lift his team in that fashion.

But if you're aiming to be a great championship team, you can't exactly have Demar in the Crowder/Middleton role either or your team is not nearly as good. And if you put DeMar in his normal role, then he just doesn't have that efficiency to give your team that championship ceiling.

That is the Demar issue, and that's why he has his strong detractors. I love him on the Raptors and I love what he's been able to do for this franchise. But the Raptors are the Raptors and not the Warriors for a reason.