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9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum
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KeonClark wrote: View PostSo we're punishing Derozan because he's in the 2nd tier of team leading scorers? Middleton is not in any tier of team leading scorers. Without Giannis the Bucks would have been a lottery team, likely a very bad team. Without Lowry, the Raptors are still around .500 and in the playoffs, I think that's safe to say based on evidence. We keep moving the goalposts, now it's "which player best adds value as 3rd or 4th option on a champion". What? These rankings are, simply put, the "best players in the NBA" Full stop. Coaches pick Demar every year. Players pick Demar. GMs pick Demar. The only guys who seem to not are the bloggers so bogged down in spreadsheets they miss the forest through the trees. Middleton is the type of player who can hide for stretches of games and seasons, let Giannis do the work, or other guys, and the team may not miss a beat. Demar has a job that the team relies on, a job that 90% of the players in the league would buckle under and fail trying to perform for 82 gamesHeir, Prince of Cambridge
If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.
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Axel wrote: View PostDemar's opportunity is a factor in allowing him to score 27 PPG. If our entire offence wasn't build around him, he wouldn't score and would add value in other areas. If Middleton had the offence built around him, he would likely score in volume, but would also add value as a versatile defender.
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Axel wrote: View PostThen why do the rankings of multiple media outlets all say similar things? Are they all wrong?
OR are people ignoring legit reasons?
Perhaps a mix of the two, but I'm leaning more to the latter.
S.R. wrote: View PostMeh, it's also the effect of love for the new NBA, 3+D are obviously being weighted heavily for wing players (Middleton) and it's just as hip to mock volume scorers as it is to make fun of Coldplay.
Interestingly, weak D at any other position seems to be much less of a concern than at SG/SF. Players are being judged against trendy archetypes rather than on their own actual merits.
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Axel wrote: View PostDemar's opportunity is a factor in allowing him to score 27 PPG. If our entire offence wasn't build around him, he wouldn't score and would add value in other areas. If Middleton had the offence built around him, he would likely score in volume, but would also add value as a versatile defender.9 time first team all-RR, First Ballot Hall of Forum
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KeonClark wrote: View PostThis appears to be where we have a disconnect. You believe the raptors made derozan simply by giving him shots. Again if it was so easy, shouldn't all 30 teams be able to have a 27 ppg scorer? Just give your guard 20 shots and voila?Heir, Prince of Cambridge
If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.
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KeonClark wrote: View PostSo we're punishing Derozan because he's in the 2nd tier of team leading scorers? Middleton is not in any tier of team leading scorers. Without Giannis the Bucks would have been a lottery team, likely a very bad team. Without Lowry, the Raptors are still around .500 and in the playoffs, I think that's safe to say based on evidence. We keep moving the goalposts, now it's "which player best adds value as 3rd or 4th option on a champion". What? These rankings are, simply put, the "best players in the NBA" Full stop. Coaches pick Demar every year. Players pick Demar. GMs pick Demar. The only guys who seem to not are the bloggers so bogged down in spreadsheets they miss the forest through the trees. Middleton is the type of player who can hide for stretches of games and seasons, let Giannis do the work, or other guys, and the team may not miss a beat. Demar has a job that the team relies on, a job that 90% of the players in the league would buckle under and fail trying to perform for 82 games
What I'm saying is where it gets tricky is that Middleton has a place in the closing lineup of a championship level team, as a 3rd option/ role player. I don't believe DeRozan does have a role in that situation. So the problem is that while DeRozan is a better player, to win championships Middleton is the guy you want to have, not DeRozan. That's where things become tricky. If you want to be a good team and you don't have two of the top 10 players in the league, then you would rather have Derozan because a team built around him can win 45-50 games. But if you already have a team with Paul and Harden, for example, you would take Middleton over DeRozan any day.That is a normal collar. Move on, find a new slant.
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Other Scott wrote: View PostNo, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying Middleton is better than DeRozan. DeRozan is better.
What I'm saying is where it gets tricky is that Middleton has a place in the closing lineup of a championship level team, as a 3rd option/ role player. I don't believe DeRozan does have a role in that situation. So the problem is that while DeRozan is a better player, to win championships Middleton is the guy you want to have, not DeRozan. That's where things become tricky. If you want to be a good team and you don't have two of the top 10 players in the league, then you would rather have Derozan because a team built around him can win 45-50 games. But if you already have a team with Paul and Harden, for example, you would take Middleton over DeRozan any day.
How about if you don't have a 1A guy yet, no Paul and no Harden, and your choices are DeRozan vs Middleton? DeRozan can't slot into Middleton's role next to two superstars, but Middleton definitely can't get 25+ ppg as scorer 1A on an NBA team, he can't do what DeRozan does.
I agree with the above points that if a guy like Middleton is in fact a better player than DeMar AND an easier guy to slot into a team, then the market would reflect it. But the market still pays DeRozan nearly twice as much (!) as Middleton, even with all the 3+D love in the league."We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard
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Funny that people always like to spin things, it's definitely the sign of the times when crowd size is the barometer for success. Lol.
Derozan was ranked a mid 30's player, why because he can't defend, shoot the three and make his teammates better.
Spin doctors however would find other alternative facts to showcase who got the bigger crowd. Lmao
Sean Spicer said hi to the Emmy's crowd the other night.
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The Claw Reborn wrote: View PostFunny that people always like to spin things, it's definitely the sign of the times when crowd size is the barometer for success. Lol.
Derozan was ranked a mid 30's player, why because he can't defend, shoot the three and make his teammates better.
Spin doctors however would find other alternative facts to showcase who got the bigger crowd. Lmao
Sean Spicer said hi to the Emmy's crowd the other night.
But I didn't hear you talking about that ranking.
Rankings are subjective. People will choose the ones that support their own viewpoint. If you want to talk about spin you should probably examine your own biases first.
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Scraptor wrote: View PostDeRozan made an All-NBA team as one of the top 15 players in the league. Say 20 if you want to argue positional requirements skew who gets in. Needless to say, he was the 2nd-ranked shooting guard (3rd if you consider Butler a guard).
But I didn't hear you talking about that ranking.
Rankings are subjective. People will choose the ones that support their own viewpoint. If you want to talk about spin you should probably examine your own biases first.
- Poor Defense
- Can not Shoot the Three
- Inability to make his other Teammates better
No spinning on that.
But I'd rather these guys rank him higher that at least would prevent him from padding his PPG and allow his teammates to get more touches. He can put to rest This #proveem shit
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- Poor Defense
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KeonClark wrote: View PostThis appears to be where we have a disconnect. You believe the raptors made derozan simply by giving him shots. Again if it was so easy, shouldn't all 30 teams be able to have a 27 ppg scorer? Just give your guard 20 shots and voila?
Edit: Put the stats to the side for a second, and I'm genuinely starting to wonder if people are seeing the same things I am when I'm watching DeRozan. Say what you will about him not playing the game in a textbook "efficient" way, but LOOK at some of the shit that dude is doing on the court. His ability to finish extremely high difficulty shots in traffic, the footwork to basically maneuver himself out of any situation and get a clean look off, the cleverness he has to constantly bait defenders out of position or into fouls and among the best combination of body control and pure athleticism in the league.
I'm really not sure what people are seeing, but that is not something that everybody in the league just has. We are talking about top of the line, high-end skill when it comes to DeMar's offensive game. Even Kevin Durant was in awe of the guy's footwork, and KD is probably going to go down as one of the top 5 best scorers in the history of the game.
I'm sure most people here played ball at least at some level. This guy does stuff that you'd just be messing around trying to do before practice or something and failing, at high speed against NBA level athletes and competition. I think there's just generally an under-appreciation for the actual ability he has because he lacks in the areas that people want wings to be good at nowadays (3PT shooting and defense).
This isn't even from last year where he added even more stuff to his arsenal, but the year before. Please tell me again how you can just pluck guys off teams, hand them 20 shots a game and they start doing this kind of stuff in games:
I don't like blowing smoke up the guy like this, because I genuinely do have a big problem with the negatives that come with him, but I don't like it when people act like he's JUST a product of being handed a bunch of shots. That's thousands of hours of honing your craft, not anybody in the league can do that.Last edited by Shaolin Fantastic; Thu Sep 21, 2017, 01:29 AM.
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