Everything Derozan

[Other Scott]

I like your post. Good thoughts. Well balanced and rationale.... we'll beat that out of you yet

Regarding bold, a big reason Brooklyn wasn't pressuring nearly as well was because there was nothing to pressure when the ball didn't stick. Recognize you don't have an opportunity and get rid of the ball quicker than quick instead of forcing and there is nothing to trap.

That's part of it, but I really think when the Raptors started their run in the second quarter, the energy of the crowd completely discombobulated the Nets. They looked like they had no idea where they should be on either end of the floor. I don't think it was just a matter of the Raptors suddenly realizing, "Oh, look, we had open passing lanes this whole time that we simply never saw!"

It's a pretty common thing for fans to think their team is completely responsible for whether the game goes their way or not, but make no mistake, last night, Brooklyn played very poorly the end of the second quarter and beginning of the third, and really well on offense in the 4th. The Raps did the complete opposite.

[OldSkoolCool]

It just doesn't make much sense to me that there's some kind of genetic factor limiting his ability to dribble.

What about famous composers? Artists? There is a genetic factor even though it is something that cannot be proven. If so we could all be wickedly skilled athletes/artists/composers but we aren't.

Some people are just born with some abilities and some are not. I've seen people work their ass off at shooting and still suck...I've seen other people who have never played basketball before become excellent 3pt shooters in a month in games. Genetics/talent, whatever you want to call it, exists.

[stooley]

What about famous composers? Artists? There is a genetic factor even though it is something that cannot be proven. If so we could all be wickedly skilled athletes/artists/composers but we aren't.

Some people are just born with it and some are not.

Good point.

I think those are creative traits as opposed to technical ones though. I think pretty much anyone could become a world class pianist or draw super realistic drawings if they start young, practice hard and enjoy the process.

Plus I'm not sure there is a genetic factor to become very good at those creative things, only to become a generational talent like Mozart or da Vinci. Everyone else is a combination of hard work and luck (in the form of opportunity). But I could be wrong.

I guess it would be possible that Derozan doesn't ever improve, but I don't think that's likely. Like I said, he was a complete project when he was drafted, and he's shown the ability to improve so far.

[Joey]

What about famous composers? Artists? There is a genetic factor even though it is something that cannot be proven. If so we could all be wickedly skilled athletes/artists/composers but we aren't.

Some people are just born with it and some are not.

Disagree. I think some are born with the desire and will to be great. And others are not.

My father is an Artist/Musician, and he will be the first to tell you that the only way he ever got near as talented as he is, is by working his butt off. As a now trained Guitar player myself, I can attest to that. By no means was I genetically predisposed to be a good guitar player. I sucked. For years. But by playing everyday, and practicing, and working, I've honed my skill to the point where I feel I can now call myself a "talented guitar player".

Demar has dedicated himself, and honed his craft, improving on a nearly year-by-year basis. Assuming he puts in the required effort and time, I see no reason why he can't continue to improve.

[OldSkoolCool]

Good point.

I think those are creative traits as opposed to technical ones though. I think pretty much anyone could become a world class pianist or draw super realistic drawings if they start young, practice hard and enjoy the process.

Plus I'm not sure there is a genetic factor to become very good at those creative things, only to become a generational talent like Mozart or da Vinci. Everyone else is a combination of hard work and luck (in the form of opportunity). But I could be wrong.

I guess it would be possible that Derozan doesn't ever improve, but I don't think that's likely. Like I said, he was a complete project when he was drafted, and he's shown the ability to improve so far.

But is basketball not an art as well??

You have to work to perfect the technical aspects (ie shot mechanics etc) in order to maximize the talent you do have.

But there is a lot too the game that is art. Seeing passing lanes and driving lanes is an interpretation. You are envisioning what will happen before it happens, much like a great artist paints the picture in his head before his technical skills are used to implement it.

Disagree. I think some are born with the desire and will to be great. And others are not.

My father is an Artist/Musician, and he will be the first to tell you that the only way he ever got near as talented as he is, is by working his butt off. As a now trained Guitar player myself, I can attest to that. By no means was I genetically predisposed to be a good guitar player. I sucked. For years. But by playing everyday, and practicing, and working, I've honed my skill to the point where I feel I can now call myself a "talented guitar player".

Demar has dedicated himself, and honed his craft, improving on a nearly year-by-year basis. Assuming he puts in the required effort and time, I see no reason why he can't continue to improve.

I should have also mentioned that you also need to work really hard it and that talent is not enough. If you just rely on talent you get Andrea Bargnani (Talent) instead of Dirk Nowitski (Talent+Work)

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Some people are just born with some abilities and some are not. I've seen people work their ass off at shooting and still suck...I've seen other people who have never played basketball before become excellent 3pt shooters in a month in games. Genetics/talent, whatever you want to call it, exists.

Disagree. I think some are born with the desire and will to be great. And others are not.

I think to become elite, in any field, it takes a combination of natural talent, work ethic and instinct (BBIQ). Being extra strong in one area can makeup for a slight weakness in another, but the best of the best demonstrate above-average ability in each of those 3 areas.

I personally feel that DeRozan's weakness is the BBIQ, as evidenced by his slow decision making on the court, whether it's misreading the defense or missing opportunities to hit open teammates, or being slow to react defensively. There's no doubt he's talented and his work ethic has always been considered to be a huge strength. Whether you call it instinct, BBIQ, court vision, or something else, I feel that's his greatest shortcoming.

[The Great One]

In the last 50 years, only MJ & Shaq attempted more FT in their 1st 5 career playoff games than DeMar DeRozan (61): http://t.co/6JcAdioyv1

— Basketball Reference (@bball_ref) May 1, 2014

[Joey]

In the last 50 years, only MJ & Shaq attempted more FT in their 1st 5 career playoff games than DeMar DeRozan (61): http://t.co/6JcAdioyv1

— Basketball Reference (@bball_ref) May 1, 2014

Amazing.

[007]

Amazing.

AAAAAAND,

He hit clutch Free Throws to ice the game.

[imanshumpert]

I personally don't get the "untapped potential". Honestly DD is an extremely limited player talent wise, however he works his ass off so he is a very good player in the league.

For example, James Harden is an extremely talented player (he can do everything), but he isn't necessarily known to be a gym rat or a hard worker (especially on D). Harden enjoyed success upon entering into the NBA and has risen to the top pretty quickly because he had the talent. Compare him to DD, who came into this league and struggled for 4 YEARS before his hard work payed off and he started to catch Mr. Harden in year 5.

There will be a point where DD's improvements stop because he will come up against the "talent barrier". This is seen already with his lack of advanced handle and struggle to improve his three point shot, I would also argue that he does not see passing lanes that well.



Nice little nugget here. Analogy: Less is more

DD needs to stop trying to score, and start playing basketball for the finer points. Celebrate the pass, the hockey assist, the beautiful cut, the inside out, the 7 pass open shot, making the other team scramble on D like your puppets. Those little this lead to winning (see Spurs).

One of my biggest gripes against DD is that I think the Raps are best when he does less. This was seen in quarters 2 and 3* when we exploded against the Nets....he didn't try and do anything, he just played within the team. If he can learn to do that all game every game then ALL of the "inefficient/ball sticking/selfish/blah blah offense" etc bad-talk about DD goes right out the window.


*I'm leaving out 4th Q because that was on Salmons+Hayes+GV+Patterson

I actually agree with you that the Raptors are at their best when DeRozan does less.

So is basically every single team with their top scorer. If DeRozan doesn't have to shoot as much it usually means somebody else stepped up (ie. Lowry hanging 36 on Brooklyn last game). Unfortunately, since DeRozan is our best scorer it's rare that someone is going to outperform him scoring-wise on our team, which means he actually has to do a lot.

This team is going to be a title contender if we can get our hands on a player who scores better than DeRozan (that doesn't clash with his game) while somehow keeping most of our core intact. That would result in a lot more of the DeRozan we saw yesterday and less games where he has to take 18-20 shots.

Some of you need to acknowledge that DD has not been shooting a lot because he's a ball hog, it's been primarily out of necessity. Jonas has been effective, but Brooklyn is making it very difficult to get him in effective scoring positions with the ball (Casey needs to figure this out, and he did last game actually). Lowry was not playing particularly amazingly on the offensive end prior to last night, and Ross has been terrible all series.

[imanshumpert]

Pretty sure we mean that in different senses. When I say I'm pro-Demar, it means I think Demar is a pretty great player and was probably deserving of making that All-Star team (though only because there's a dearth of great EC guards).

When mcHappy says he's pro-Raptors, he means that not in the sense that he thinks the Raptors are great (though they're obviously at least a very good team), he means that in the sense that he wants what's necessary to make the Raptors a better team, including trading Demar if necessary, for the right price.

In my opinion, no one is going to blow the Raptors away with an offer for DeRozan. There's a reason you don't see teams trade their star players away very often.

I think DeRozan was pretty good last night, though he had a much easier task than some of the other games since Lowry was on fire and Brooklyn wasn't pressuring nearly as well as they had been throughout the series. He hasn't had a fantastic game yet, but that first half of Game 4 was unreal, the best half any Raptor has played to this point. Ultimately, Brooklyn isn't a great matchup for him because Joe Johnson puts him out of sorts on the defensive end.

I totally agree with you, I just think mcHAPPY was trying to say that being pro-DeMar prevents you from being pro-Raptors.

[imanshumpert]

I think one thing people are conveniently ignoring/not giving DD credit for is his free-throw shooting in the clutch.

This is actually one of the huge benefits of his ability to get to the line during the game: he's in rhythm late in the game which allows him to come up huge for us.

Game 2: 6-6 FTs in the last 20 seconds to seal it. If he misses the first pair, Brooklyn ties it on the next possession. Last 4 prevented Brooklyn from being within 1 possession late. 100-95 win.

Game 5: 4-4 FTs in the last 17 seconds. If he misses the first pair, the AA three ties the game. On the second pair, if he doesn't hit, Brooklyn is only down 1 with a ton of momentum and we can't foul Blatche to send him to the line to screw up.

[BigCamB]

His weaknesses to me are
- 3 point shooting
- shot selection
- basketball IQ
- lateral quickness
- first step
- ball handling

DeMar can definitely improve his three point shooting and I believe he will, however most scouts will tell you that people with mediocre handles usually don't ever improve them very much. Kind of hard to explain why, but from what I've seen that appears to be the case as well. I doubt he'll ever have great handles but he certainly isn't anywhere near his peak level overall. Apart from lateral quickness and his explosiveness off the dribble, everything else should improve at least a bit, and obviously his strengths can improve as well.

[Puffer]

...DeMar can definitely improve his three point shooting and I believe he will, however most scouts will tell you that people with mediocre handles usually don't ever improve them very much....

The Raptors coaching team/staff have the people who can help with virtually every area of his game. I agree that you aren't going to see major improvements, but basketball is really a game of increments. The difference in speed/strength/shooting between elite and average in each of those areas is usually very small...and they reinforce each other in terms of game time impact.

If DeMar can improve his lateral quickness just a bit, and it means he can move the man he is defending from a 25 point night to a 23 point night, while increasing his own shooting % from 45 to 47% and increase his strength so he is stripped just one less time while going for the basket and turn the two free throws into an "And One" opportunity you are talking about a 3-4 point swing in every game he plays in. It is just an illustrative example, (and not based on actual look at DeMar's numbers) but the point I am trying to illustrate is how critical incremental improvements could be to him and the team.

As noted above, I believe he will make slight improvements in his game. Most players seem to not work hard enough to do this on a regular basis. DeMar has shown a willingness to do this. He actually works on his potential. It may not make sense to trade him because of this.

[OldSkoolCool]

If DeMar can improve his lateral quickness just a bit, and it means he can move the man he is defending from a 25 point night to a 23 point night, while increasing his own shooting % from 45 to 47% and increase his strength so he is stripped just one less time while going for the basket and turn the two free throws into an "And One" opportunity you are talking about a 3-4 point swing in every game he plays in. It is just an illustrative example, (and not based on actual look at DeMar's numbers) but the point I am trying to illustrate is how critical incremental improvements could be to him and the team.

This is actually a pretty good hypothetical example of the small changes that add up to big results. 3-4 point swing in a game is huge.

However, he will still be playing the same style of game. And if you aren't a fan of that (like myself), then even though those improvements really help him statistically, you will still never really like his game. That's kind of what it boils down to.

I want someone who is much better at getting to the rim and passing (ie ballhandling and court vision) from the wing position since Ross will never be a high usage guy going to the rim (though I do like what I have seen from his PnR game)