Everything Derozan

[enlightenment]

His weaknesses to me are
- 3 point shooting
- shot selection
- basketball IQ
- lateral quickness
- first step
- ball handling

DeMar can definitely improve his three point shooting and I believe he will, however most scouts will tell you that people with mediocre handles usually don't ever improve them very much. Kind of hard to explain why, but from what I've seen that appears to be the case as well. I doubt he'll ever have great handles but he certainly isn't anywhere near his peak level overall. Apart from lateral quickness and his explosiveness off the dribble, everything else should improve at least a bit, and obviously his strengths can improve as well.

First step? Really? How do you think he gets fouled so often? Its because he can beat his man and force the help!

[stooley]

First step? Really? How do you think he gets fouled so often? Its because he can beat his man and force the help!

Not really from what I can tell. He only occasionally gets by guys when they're closing out too hard or bite on his pump fakes.

Most of his fouls at the rim, from what I can tell, happen because he's got great hops and is an excellent athlete on other fronts. He's able to contort his body/arms so that it's almost impossible to stop the ball without getting some of him too.

[enlightenment]

Not really from what I can tell. He only occasionally gets by guys when they're closing out too hard or bite on his pump fakes.

Most of his fouls at the rim, from what I can tell, happen because he's got great hops and is an excellent athlete on other fronts. He's able to contort his body/arms so that it's almost impossible to stop the ball without getting some of him too.

How does he even get to the rim without a strong first step?

[stooley]

How does he even get to the rim without a strong first step?

Generally off of pin downs, picks, hand offs, and when he's open.

Again, I could be wrong, that's just my impression.

edit: or he's able to force him man down low, not necessarily blow by him.

[imanshumpert]

First step? Really? How do you think he gets fouled so often? Its because he can beat his man and force the help!

DeRozan's first step actually is just average maybe slightly above average for a 2-guard. It's not a weakness, but he's not prime Kobe or Wade.

He gets to the rim because he's crafty and has elite (not good, elite) footwork, similar to a guy like Paul Pierce (who got to the like like 8-9 times per game in his prime)

[imanshumpert]

This is actually a pretty good hypothetical example of the small changes that add up to big results. 3-4 point swing in a game is huge.

However, he will still be playing the same style of game. And if you aren't a fan of that (like myself), then even though those improvements really help him statistically, you will still never really like his game. That's kind of what it boils down to.

I want someone who is much better at getting to the rim and passing (ie ballhandling and court vision) from the wing position since Ross will never be a high usage guy going to the rim (though I do like what I have seen from his PnR game)

See this is what I don't understand. You want to make a move in order to put a guy that fits better with Ross when DeMar is clearly the better player and their difference in age is negligible. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Doesn't it make more sense to get a SF who can space the floor and play elite defense and move Ross to the bench? What you're saying is the equivalent of Indiana saying they want to trade Paul George for a SF who doesn't need the ball in his hands as much because Stephenson specializes in that area (It's actually WORSE than that, because the gap in ability between DeMar and Ross is greater than that of Lance and George).

[stooley]

See this is what I don't understand. You want to make a move in order to put a guy that fits better with Ross when DeMar is clearly the better player and their difference in age is negligible. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Ross is more of a two way player, so there's that. Ross, in an ideal situation, with an all-star PG and 3/4 is really the perfect 2 guard. Ross would slot in really nicely on Portland or on OKC I think.

[enlightenment]

DeRozan's first step actually is just average maybe slightly above average for a 2-guard. It's not a weakness, but he's not prime Kobe or Wade.

He gets to the rim because he's crafty and has elite (not good, elite) footwork, similar to a guy like Paul Pierce (who got to the like like 8-9 times per game in his prime)

Translation of Bold: "Derozan's first step is average/slightly above average, my evidence is that its not legendary!"

You can't compare to prime Kobe and Wade, fine. But Demar is currently one of the best penetrators in the league at the SG position. Almost ALL his assists come from drive and kick, most of his elite foul getting ability is due to his penetration, and the way the defence sags on him when recovering from a screen is proof that they are afraid of his drives.

He gets to the rim with an explosive first step, most of his turnovers is because his handles are not up to par as his first step.

[TSF]

See this is what I don't understand. You want to make a move in order to put a guy that fits better with Ross when DeMar is clearly the better player and their difference in age is negligible. This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Doesn't it make more sense to get a SF who can space the floor and play elite defense and move Ross to the bench? What you're saying is the equivalent of Indiana saying they want to trade Paul George for a SF who doesn't need the ball in his hands as much because Stephenson specializes in that area (It's actually WORSE than that, because the gap in ability between DeMar and Ross is greater than that of Lance and George).

I think it's more like Ross fits better with most players. If DD is Wade, Ross is a 2 guard version of Kawhi Leonard. If you were looking to build a roster and you didn't know who your eventual superstar would be, Ross is a better guy to have because he works with virtually every superstar. Whereas you couldn't put DD in Memphis or Charlotte or Indiana without nightmare spacing.

[stooley]

Translation of Bold: "Derozan's first step is average/slightly above average, my evidence is that its not legendary!"

You can't compare to prime Kobe and Wade, fine. But Demar is currently one of the best penetrators in the league at the SG position. Almost ALL his assists come from drive and kick, most of his elite foul getting ability is due to his penetration, and the way the defence sags on him when recovering from a screen is proof that they are afraid of his drives.

He gets to the rim with an explosive first step, most of his turnovers is because his handles are not up to par as his first step.

The defense in this series has been trapping DD really hard. The exact opposite of sagging back.

Watching the games, I just rarely see him actually blow by his defender. Happens maybe a few times per game, and usually it's because he was left open, and a guy's closing him out really hard, trying to take away the jumper.

[imanshumpert]

I think it's more like Ross fits better with most players. If DD is Wade, Ross is a 2 guard version of Kawhi Leonard. If you were looking to build a roster and you didn't know who your eventual superstar would be, Ross is a better guy to have because he works with virtually every superstar. Whereas you couldn't put DD in Memphis or Charlotte or Indiana without nightmare spacing.

I think there is an abundance of players with Ross' skill set (3+D, and his D isn't even that great yet) that can be had on the cheap. Players like DeMar that have elite footwork, can score in a variety of ways, get to the line like nothing, can maintain low turnover rates with high usage and pass/rebound effectively are a lot harder to find and even harder to get on a bargain.

[TSF]

I think there is an abundance of players with Ross' skill set (3+D, and his D isn't even that great yet) that can be had on the cheap. Players like DeMar that have elite footwork, can score in a variety of ways, get to the line like nothing, can maintain low turnover rates with high usage and pass/rebound effectively are a lot harder to find and even harder to get on a bargain.

Ross is also in his second year and has great potential. If he can learn how to drive and put that insane athleticism to work when they close out on him, he'd be really really good on offence. I agree DD's not easy to find, but it's just not as good a fit if you were to get say Marc Gasol or Howard or any traditional big man. I prefer keeping DD and Ross, and if I had to trading Ross not DD, but I can see where the argument comes from.

[imanshumpert]

Ross is also in his second year and has great potential. If he can learn how to drive and put that insane athleticism to work when they close out on him, he'd be really really good on offence. I agree DD's not easy to find, but it's just not as good a fit if you were to get say Marc Gasol or Howard or any traditional big man. I prefer keeping DD and Ross, and if I had to trading Ross not DD, but I can see where the argument comes from.

Lol what...

Slashers actually have worked well with traditional bigmen historically. Let's look at the last few traditional bigmen to win the championship.

Tony Parker and Duncan (Parker career 31% 3PT)
Kobe and Shaq (Kobe career 33% 3PT)
Wade and Shaq (Wade career 28% 3PT)
Drexler and Olajuwon (Drexler career 30% 3PT)
Worthy and Abdul-Jabbar (Worth career 24% 3PT)

I could go on, but I won't. All of those guys played with dominant traditional bigs and were slashing guards/wings who did the bulk of their damage at the rim and from mid-range. Total fucking rubbish man.

[TSF]

Lol what...

Slashers actually have worked well with traditional bigmen historically. Let's look at the last few traditional bigmen to win the championship.

Tony Parker and Duncan (Parker career 31% 3PT)
Kobe and Shaq (Kobe career 33% 3PT)
Wade and Shaq (Wade career 28% 3PT)
Drexler and Olajuwon (Drexler career 30% 3PT)
Worthy and Abdul-Jabbar (Worth career 24% 3PT)

I could go on, but I won't. All of those guys played with dominant traditional bigs and were slashing guards/wings who did the bulk of their damage at the rim and from mid-range. Total fucking rubbish man.

So DD would work with traditional bigmen if he was a hall-of-famer at the level of Parker, Wade, Kobe? Those guys would work with absolutely anyone.

You know what works way, way better if your player isn't HOF-worthy? Complimentary shooters, the type of guys that are on every playoff team with aspirations these days.

[stooley]

So DD would work with traditional bigmen if he was a hall-of-famer at the level of Parker, Wade, Kobe? Those guys would work with absolutely anyone.

You know what works way, way better if your player isn't HOF-worthy? Complimentary shooters, the type of guys that are on every playoff team with aspirations these days.

I guess the argument is that it would be easier to find a 3 that can fill Ross's role, than one that can fill DD's.