Everything Derozan

[Other Scott]

Here's the rub; you're trying to have your cake and eat it to (DeRozan apologists, not just you specifically).

On one hand, you acknowledge that DeRozan isn't a superstar player and that ideally he should be a #1b/#2 scorer on a truly good team. Either that, or Toronto is compared to the NBA champion Pistons of the early 2000's, as a team that relies on a balanced lineup instead of 1 superstar carrying the load.

On the other hand, you argue that it's acceptable for DeRozan to try and play like a superstar, effectively forcing his game and taking too many poor/contested shots (which is the exact point so many 'haters' have been making all season).


The bottom line is that DeRozan doesn't have to do anything. If he were to play within himself, he should be taking a few less shots a game, effectively spreading out the team's offense. Doing so would force the defense to stay honest and defend multiple players more closely, rather than keying on DeRozan, which is what they're doing because he's forcing himself into the superstar role. Spreading the offense around would generate more open looks overall, get more players involved and into the flow of the offensive game, and would even actually benefit DeRozan by alleviating some of the double-teams and pressure being put on him.

I will fully admit that a good chunk of the blame falls on DC, for playing DeRozan in that role (or for not holding him accountable for going against more balanced, team-oriented play calling). DeRozan isn't a superstar and shouldn't be playing a superstar style game, yet he is, inefficiently.

You're confusing what we believe in the present for what we believe in the future.

In the present, is there enough skilled offensive players on this team to play a balanced attack a la Spurs/Pistons? The answer is no, there are not. As such, the best way for the Raptors to win as the team is currently constructed is to have your best offensive option, DeMar, take a high percentage of the shots.

In the future, when JV hopefully becomes a better scoring option, then you have him take a lot of the load of DeMar's shots. The offense will run evenly through DeMar, JV and Lowry at that point. That's the Spurs model this team may be able to contend around eventually. But we're not there yet, because JV isn't a good enough offensive option to do this.

Can this team be a championship contender with DeMar taking 17 FGA/36? Probably not, no. But that doesn't mean that the best possible version of this current team needs DeMar to "play more within himself".

[stooley]

Here's the rub; you're trying to have your cake and eat it to (DeRozan apologists, not just you specifically).

On one hand, you acknowledge that DeRozan isn't a superstar player and that ideally he should be a #1b/#2 scorer on a truly good team. Either that, or Toronto is compared to the NBA champion Pistons of the early 2000's, as a team that relies on a balanced lineup instead of 1 superstar carrying the load.

On the other hand, you argue that it's acceptable for DeRozan to try and play like a superstar, effectively forcing his game and taking too many poor/contested shots (which is the exact point so many 'haters' have been making all season).


The bottom line is that DeRozan doesn't have to do anything. If he were to play within himself, he should be taking a few less shots a game, effectively spreading out the team's offense. Doing so would force the defense to stay honest and defend multiple players more closely, rather than keying on DeRozan, which is what they're doing because he's forcing himself into the superstar role. Spreading the offense around would generate more open looks overall, get more players involved and into the flow of the offensive game, and would even actually benefit DeRozan by alleviating some of the double-teams and pressure being put on him.

I will fully admit that a good chunk of the blame falls on DC, for playing DeRozan in that role (or for not holding him accountable for going against more balanced, team-oriented play calling). DeRozan isn't a superstar and shouldn't be playing a superstar style game, yet he is, inefficiently.

Well, I don't think that's exactly what he's saying. I think he's saying it's a critical role that needs to be filled on an NBA offense. Even Carlos Boozer played like that, so either Thibs doesn't know how to discipline his players or it's actually just how the NBA works. Maybe he's playing a role that's critical to success in the NBA, but he's just not quite good enough to fill that role yet.

There may come a time when he is, or there may come a time when we get a player that allows him to play as 1b.

The fact that his salary is significantly less than those guys just makes the latter easier to attain.

edit: or as other scott said (whom by the way, has been a nice addition to the forum) the supporting cast improves enough to balance out the attack.

As many of the most vocal 'haters' themselves have admitted, both DeRozan and the team were playing their best when he wasn't forcing the superstar style of play. When his shot totals were down (especially long 2's), his peripheral numbers were up (assists and rebounds) and the ball was moving more, his harshest critics gave him credit. Unfortunately, in the playoffs, he reverted to his old-self and played a Rudy Gay-lite style game.

It may be that those days, the supporting cast was stepping up more? Just throwing ideas out. It's hard to say which triggered which.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

You're confusing what we believe in the present for what we believe in the future.

In the present, is there enough skilled offensive players on this team to play a balanced attack a la Spurs/Pistons? The answer is no, there are not. As such, the best way for the Raptors to win as the team is currently constructed is to have your best offensive option, DeMar, take a high percentage of the shots.

In the future, when JV hopefully becomes a better scoring option, then you have him take a lot of the load of DeMar's shots. The offense will run evenly through DeMar, JV and Lowry at that point. That's the Spurs model this team may be able to contend around eventually. But we're not there yet, because JV isn't a good enough offensive option to do this.

Can this team be a championship contender with DeMar taking 17 FGA/36? Probably not, no. But that doesn't mean that the best possible version of this current team needs DeMar to "play more within himself".

I strongly disagree with you on the bold.

Lowry is at least equally capable as DeRozan, while being a much better distributor.

Valanciunas has shown the ability to put up 15-20/10 games.

Ross has shown the ability to chip in 10-15 points quite easily.

Amir is a double-double machine, when the P&R game is actually utilized.

Vasquez and Patterson are effective low-use scorers.


I believe the lack of a balanced attack had less to do with personnel and more to do with game planning and play calling. Again, DC is as much to blame as DeRozan (possibly more so), since his lack of offensive creativity was on display with his constant 'give it to Rudy' or 'give it to DeRozan' or 'give it to Lowry on the wrong side of the court' ISO-centric play calling.

And I was only talking about maybe scaling back by 2-3 shots per game and/or driving to the basket more often (more trips to the charity stripe results in less FGA on the stat sheet). It's not like I was suggesting he cut his shot attempts in half, or anything drastic. I just want to see DeRozan held accountable to focusing on quality over quantity, more than anything.

[stooley]

CRF, I'd argue that it was a matter of personnel. But hopefully that will slowly change.

Lowry was the only consistent secondary scorer.

JV was incredibly inconsistent during the season, as was Ross.

Amir's very limited in his scoring ability. If the passing lanes are cut off in the PnR, his effectiveness is mostly on off the ball stuff.

Ideally you'd like to see Demar recognizing when certain players are playing well and get them the ball more, but he's been surrounded by scrubs his whole career, and I'm sure the whole distribution thing, game control, and playing with competent scorers will come with the time (sure? more like hope I guess ).

[mcHAPPY]

CRF, I'd argue that it was a matter of personnel. But hopefully that will slowly change.

Lowry was the only consistent secondary scorer.

JV was incredibly inconsistent during the season, as was Ross.

Amir's very limited in his scoring ability. If the passing lanes are cut off in the PnR, his effectiveness is mostly on off the ball stuff.

Ideally you'd like to see Demar recognizing when certain players are playing well and get them the ball more, but he's been surrounded by scrubs his whole career, and I'm sure the whole distribution thing, game control, and playing with competent scorers will come with the time (sure? more like hope I guess ).

That is crucial.

Ujiri is first to admit he had no idea what to expect this year.

Be interesting to see what he does now that he at least knows what he is working with.

[MACK11]

Reading this page right now makes me feel like times are changing on Raptors Republic
If you look back 10 pages or so you can see several posters attacking one another on this subject because they believe that if you say anything to criticize DD's game you're just a hater and if you praise DD you are ignoring the flaws he has. Now if you look at this thread now you see fans on here having great conversations amongst one another without resorting to personal attacks.

[mcHAPPY]

Reading this page right now makes me feel like times are changing on Raptors Republic
If you look back 10 pages or so you can see several posters attacking one another on this subject because they believe that if you say anything to criticize DD's game you're just a hater and if you praise DD you are ignoring the flaws he has. Now if you look at this thread now you see fans on here having great conversations amongst one another without resorting to personal attacks.

You're an idiot







Jk

[mcHAPPY]

Reading this page right now makes me feel like times are changing on Raptors Republic
If you look back 10 pages or so you can see several posters attacking one another on this subject because they believe that if you say anything to criticize DD's game you're just a hater and if you praise DD you are ignoring the flaws he has. Now if you look at this thread now you see fans on here having great conversations amongst one another without resorting to personal attacks.

I think it also has to do with the fact those unable to follow forum rules have been given the boot.

Good on admin and mods for that.

[stooley]

i take it back... i feel bad

[yabadabayolo]

I strongly disagree with you on the bold.

Lowry is at least equally capable as DeRozan, while being a much better distributor.

Valanciunas has shown the ability to put up 15-20/10 games.

Ross has shown the ability to chip in 10-15 points quite easily.

Amir is a double-double machine, when the P&R game is actually utilized.

Vasquez and Patterson are effective low-use scorers.


I believe the lack of a balanced attack had less to do with personnel and more to do with game planning and play calling. Again, DC is as much to blame as DeRozan (possibly more so), since his lack of offensive creativity was on display with his constant 'give it to Rudy' or 'give it to DeRozan' or 'give it to Lowry on the wrong side of the court' ISO-centric play calling.

And I was only talking about maybe scaling back by 2-3 shots per game and/or driving to the basket more often (more trips to the charity stripe results in less FGA on the stat sheet). It's not like I was suggesting he cut his shot attempts in half, or anything drastic. I just want to see DeRozan held accountable to focusing on quality over quantity, more than anything.

I don't understand everybody saying demar should shoot 3 less shots per game. It doesn't work like that. You can't go up to someone before the game and say. Hey you can only take 12 shots tonight. The shots just happen in the flow of the game. If they are falling you keep going, if nobody else can score you keep going, if you get a damn open shot YOu KEEP GOING

[DanH]

I don't understand everybody saying demar should shoot 3 less shots per game. It doesn't work like that. You can't go up to someone before the game and say. Hey you can only take 12 shots tonight. The shots just happen in the flow of the game. If they are falling you keep going, if nobody else can score you keep going, if you get a damn open shot YOu KEEP GOING

If he only took open shots, he'd be taking a lot more than 3 fewer shots per game. It's not some magic number of shots he needs to reduce. It's the stupid iso-ball contested long two's that he seems to need to take 3 or 4 of a game.

[Joey]

If he only took open shots, he'd be taking a lot more than 3 fewer shots per game. It's not some magic number of shots he needs to reduce. It's the stupid iso-ball contested long two's that he seems to need to take 3 or 4 of a game.

So all of this is over the fact that he takes 3 shots a game that you don't like?!

[yabadabayolo]

If he only took open shots, he'd be taking a lot more than 3 fewer shots per game. It's not some magic number of shots he needs to reduce. It's the stupid iso-ball contested long two's that he seems to need to take 3 or 4 of a game.

That's just his ego, every player always wants to go ISO on the other team every now and then just to prove a point. I agree he needs to cut down on this, but I feel once ross and Jv become more consistent next year, that number might decrease a bit

[yabadabayolo]

So all of this is over the fact that he takes 3 shots a game that you don't like?!

Tru lmaoo like 7 pages dedicated to that

[mcHAPPY]

So all of this is over the fact that he takes 3 shots a game that you don't like?!

In a 6 point game, yes, 3 possession matter a lot.

And I think 3 is a little on the low side but I'm biased and a known hater.

It is all about playing within the team. He does that and he won't be faced with so many difficult shots because his teammates will have to be respected. He helps himself and the team by not forcing ISO possession after possession - which at times he does.

As always there is a time and a place for everything and DeRozan certainly is better at creating scoring opportunities than everyone on the team not named Kyle Lowry.