Everything Derozan

[chico]

Although I agree it is a spectrum, it seems that debates surrounding hm inevitably end up in one camp or the other.

The "DOD crap" name calling, just like "fanboy" name calling creates that. BTW, the DOD thing was asked by a mod to be stopped. It was publicly refused, and others have jumped on that terminology since. It lends nothing to reasonable discussion, but separates people into one side or the other. It's a forum. It should be okay to argue opinion/criticism, without being labelled as "lesser than ME, because I'M about team".

[mcHAPPY]

this is getting a little ridiculous...

If McHappy's point is that DeRozan working within the system and taking good shots is a far better product than one where he doesn't, than he is absolutely right. I mean it's really not debateable. They play better when he doesn't force his game.

Superjudge posted that we are 5 and 1 and while that is true we weren't playing like a team I had a lot of confidence in up until the Washington game. As far as how we were playing that 5 and 1 could just as easily been 1 and 5 or 2 and 3 etc...

Although we won games we weren't playing winning basketball and you need look no further than Casey's qoutes after every game. And he was right...there was a lot to be concerned about

Thanks for weighing in thead.

You've provided quite a bit of closure on the topic for me just now.

I mean, if a guy who thinks the Cavs are going to finish 8th can understand and appreciate the point (lol), then obviously I've explained clear enough.

[mcHAPPY]

Here's the possible flaw in that argument: What exactly IS the system, from Casey's point of view? And what does Casey consider a good shot? Is there anybody who can actually tell us with 100% certainty what Casey's actually offense is?

Pure speculation on my part, but observation and Casey's history suggests that he is far more comfortable having the wings and point guards take contested dribble drives, rather than swinging the ball for the open shot and risking turnovers. Our offense seems to be designed to initiate penetration, offensive rebounding and getting to the line.

You raise good points.

Casey was never hired for his offensive flair or creativity.

Masai cleaned house on Casey's (er, Colangelo's assistants) minus Sterner. Nurse is a coach who is known to be offensive coach and I believe we've seen a bit of his influence at times.


With regards to the flaw in the argument "DeRozan working within the system and taking good shots" I would simply add the Raptors are better when DeRozan does not dominate the ball. Again, Boston to Washington, night and day.

[mcHAPPY]

With all due respect, it's ridiculous to narrow the discussion down to that simple non debateable point. Nobody is arguing against it.

I can't understand why it is ridiculous to narrow the discussion down to that simple non debatable point.

If nobody is arguing against it, what is the argument? Because that is my point.

The point has taken many different forms but in the end, for me as a fan, it was always about the desire for a better brand of basketball. ISO ball and early long 2s off the dribble as a game plan is not the foundation winning basketball.

So moving forward feel free to continue with the hate and contempt but know I am done with it because there is nothing left to debate, you yourself in the above quoted response agreed as much.

Ball dominant DeRozan = Bad
Team oriented DeRozan = Good
Any debate is silliness.....
especially considering DeMar will be first recognized with individual awards for any team success

[OldSkoolCool]

Could Terrence's play affect how DeMar plays? I haven't looked at old game logs or anything but a general feeling I have (and this could be biased) is that when Terrence is hot/playing well, DeMar seems to play more of a team game.

Could simply be because if Ross is getting shots up at a decent clip, then there is no need for DeMar to force anything. Or it could open things up for him making it easier for him to score.

Just an observation that I've made watching games from last season and again against Washington this year.

without actually examining statistics, it makes a lot of sense that Ross knocking down shots would open up the floor for PnRs and driving lanes. That was I thought 2Pat would make a more effective starter than Amir. The spacing would be excellent, even though that didn't materialize during his starts

I did some simple cross plots of

- Ross Makes vs DD Makes and vs WL Record
- Ross Attempts vs DD Makes and vs WL Record
- Ross Makes vs DD Attempts and vs WL Record
- Ross Attempts vs DD Attempts and vs WL Record
- Ross FG% vs DD FG%
- Ross FG% vs WL Record
- DD FG% vs WL Record

What it all came down to is that there is no correlation between DD's makes/attempts/FG% and Ross' makes/attempts/FG%.

There is also no correlation between DD's makes/attempts/FG% and WL record.

The only correlation I got was the better Ross shot (FG%), the more games we won.

[golden]

You raise good points.

Casey was never hired for his offensive flair or creativity.

Masai cleaned house on Casey's (er, Colangelo's assistants) minus Sterner. Nurse is a coach who is known to be offensive coach and I believe we've seen a bit of his influence at times.


With regards to the flaw in the argument "DeRozan working within the system and taking good shots" I would simply add the Raptors are better when DeRozan does not dominate the ball. Again, Boston to Washington, night and day.

Again, how much is "dominating the ball" on DD, and how much is that Casey by design? Until somebody provides evidence otherwise, I'm leaning towards DD doing exactly what Casey is telling him to do. It's no different than the Brooklyn series. The offense looks hideous, but it can be brutally efficient at times, with FTs being the great equalizer to poor FG%.

[mcHAPPY]

Again, how much is "dominating the ball" on DD, and how much is that Casey by design? Until somebody provides evidence otherwise, I'm leaning towards DD doing exactly what Casey is telling him to do. It's no different than the Brooklyn series. The offense looks hideous, but it can be brutally efficient at times, with FTs being the great equalizer to poor FG%.

I don't know the answer.

Either way the end results are there for all to see.

If it is by Casey design having DeRozan dominate the ball then hopefully something clicked between Boston and Washington and the change is permanent. Vice versa if is is DeRozan.

[thead]

was not aware of the DOD thing being actively moderated. I will check in with the other mods on the subject

[golden]

I don't know the answer.

Either way the end results are there for all to see.

If it is by Casey design having DeRozan dominate the ball then hopefully something clicked between Boston and Washington and the change is permanent. Vice versa if is is DeRozan.

But to your other unassailable point: is ball dominance by Demar a defacto 'bad' thing either?

If you look at DD's game logs from last season and rank them by USG% in descending order it suggests the opposite, and at worst no-correlation. We won 6 of 7 of DD's highest USG games (all 35 - 40% USG games). That's even beyond Melo-level ball dominance.

If DD ball dominance was 'bad', that should be the acid test right there, but it's simply not the case.

[thead]

I don't think their is a direct tie between usage and bad shots. You could technically have high usage and be taking good shots within the flow of the offense

[golden]

I don't think their is a direct tie between usage and bad shots. You could technically have high usage and be taking good shots within the flow of the offense

If you're consciously trying to get to the FT line as a strategy, then you will be taking highly contested shots by design. And this 'flow' of the offense? I don't think it really applies to the Raps type of dribble drive offense that Casey wants. We're not a swing-the-ball-to-the-open-shooter type of offense, like the Spurs, or even the Celtics and Hawks. It's just not what I think Casey is doing.

I think Casey might start the offense out with good intentions in the first quarter (like getting Ross some open looks or JV some post-ups), but if that fails and we get behind, he goes to what he thinks are tried and true options, i.e. DD & Lowry hero ball offense. I truly believe that Casey is calling these plays for the wings to create shots (even bad shots), just like at the end of the game.

[mcHAPPY]

But to your other unassailable point: is ball dominance by Demar a defacto 'bad' thing either?

If you look at DD's game logs from last season and rank them by USG% in descending order it suggests the opposite, and at worst no-correlation. We won 6 of 7 of DD's highest USG games (all 35 - 40% USG games). That's even beyond Melo-level ball dominance.

If DD ball dominance was 'bad', that should be the acid test right there, but it's simply not the case.

That is interesting.

Would be interesting to know the opponents.

We all know a win is not always a win - see Boston game or OKC game or Orlando game.

And to be clear I've got no issue with DeRozan stepping up to score when the team is in a rut or a high usage within team situations.

[mcHAPPY]

was not aware of the DOD thing being actively moderated. I will check in with the other mods on the subject

Joey took offense as it did not jive with his opinions.

[.40 Cal Flakes]

Joey took offense as it did not jive with his opinions.

I don't think that's it at all man. For me I don't like how it's used as rhetoric seemingly for the purpose of flaming DeRo supporters and lumping them into "fanboy" status.

This is coming from someone who tends to agree with your opinions on DeRo (i.e. he needs to play more team ball and within the "system", team plays better when he doesn't try to do too much on his own, too many unnecessarily difficult shots etc etc).

[golden]

That is interesting.

Would be interesting to know the opponents.

We all know a win is not always a win - see Boston game or OKC game or Orlando game.

And to be clear I've got no issue with DeRozan stepping up to score when the team is in a rut or a high usage within team situations.

A mix of really good and really bad teams from last season: Boston, Dallas, Portland, Philly, Indy, Orlando, Cleveland. Link is below - you have to switch to Advanced Log and sort by USG% to view it properly.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...l_advanced::19