Everything Derozan

[Axel]

I say they are a contender for the East. What is it about them that prevents them from Contender status?

I can't think of any qualification you can use about the Raptors (lack of playoff success, etc.) that prevents them from contender status that you can't use about any other team. You can't just have no contenders for the East title.

As much as we may be spinning our wheels on this one, I'll jump in anyway.

If we are judging "contender" based on the success/failure of the tank movement, then Championship Contender is the only status that counts. Team Management had already stated that Championships were the goal, not conference championships.

If we are discussing generic team success, contender, to me, means do you have a realistic shot of winning the NBA title. On any given year, I say that it reserved for only a handful of teams (less than 6). You then have teams that are "close but no cigar", these are the teams that could contend for a conference birth, but are basically going to be underdogs to make or win the NBA Finals. I'd say the Raps are likely in this scenario.

It is conceivable that they could make the East Finals, and then possibly even win it, but I'd say their chances aren't particularly high. If the Raps could win out of the east, they'd need career best performances to match up with any team that comes out of the West. Again, possible but very unlikely.

I'd rank contenders roughly as:

GSW
Memphis
Chicago - if healthy
San Antonio
Houston
LAC

Fringe Status
Cleveland - they have the potential but are still a work in progress
Atlanta - still need to prove some things in the playoffs
Dallas
OKC - if healthy

Close but no cigar teams
Portland
Toronto
Washington


If you are only looking at "contending" for the east title, then you are adding lower teams, but it is also a much lower threshold. Winning the East isn't the same accomplishment as Winning the West. That is fact; the west is much stronger competition. The East, you could say Miami is a contender, or even Milwaukee, even though neither team is exactly a powerhouse even in the conference.

Personally, "contender" doesn't mean the East, it means hanging with the big boys and possibly winning a ring. At this point, only Chicago (if healthy) would put much scare into any Western team. If Atlanta plays well in the playoffs, then they could carry momentum into the Finals, but outside of those 2 teams, I very much doubt any Eastern team puts up much of a fight against whoever comes out of the west.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

If we are judging "contender" based on the success/failure of the tank movement, then Championship Contender is the only status that counts. Team Management had already stated that Championships were the goal, not conference championships.

There's also an element of sustainability that comes into play. It's much easier for short-term success and limited-time contender status to be achieved, especially through what I would call flawed team-building (ie: going all in this season by trading future draft picks for big contracts). Sustainable success, where the team is considered a contender for an extended period, requires a more methodical building process, since you need to develop a core group of players and implement an effective system - basically build a solid foundation with younger players who can grow together.

I think of teams like OKC and SA, where their core group have developed together after being drafted by the team. Key free agents can be added and trades can be made, but the core (and typically the best players) is usually drafted, since it's the most efficient way of adding inexpensive young talent.

From my perspective, the 'pro tankers' were essentially just pushing for the Raptors to build a new core (including JV), rather than trying to retool around a Lowry/DeRozan core. I think that's why DeRozan & JV have become such lightning rods for the tank/contend discussions (the DC debate too, since he's tied to the current Lowry/DeRozan 'win now' core).

[Axel]

There's also an element of sustainability that comes into play. It's much easier for short-term success and limited-time contender status to be achieved, especially through what I would call flawed team-building (ie: going all in this season by trading future draft picks for big contracts). Sustainable success, where the team is considered a contender for an extended period, requires a more methodical building process, since you need to develop a core group of players and implement an effective system - basically build a solid foundation with younger players who can grow together.

I think of teams like OKC and SA, where their core group have developed together after being drafted by the team. Key free agents can be added and trades can be made, but the core (and typically the best players) is usually drafted, since it's the most efficient way of adding inexpensive young talent.

From my perspective, the 'pro tankers' were essentially just pushing for the Raptors to build a new core (including JV), rather than trying to retool around a Lowry/DeRozan core. I think that's why DeRozan & JV have become such lightning rods for the tank/contend discussions (the DC debate too, since he's tied to the current Lowry/DeRozan 'win now' core).

Very true.

If Atlanta can sustain this success for multiple seasons, and have a deep run (even losing in the East Finals), then I think that changes the perspective of them as "contenders".

The flip side of that is Memphis and San Antonio. They have proven they can win in the playoffs, so the regular season is just a formality; so they get contender status almost regardless of where they finish the regular season.

[Bendit]

Finally from the horse's mouth

Re the tanking conundrum and specifically if Masai was not or lukewarm or even whether it was hogwash that Lowry was on his way to New York......

There are some on the forum who dispute this. Hope this brings some closure to the matter.

"I didn't think I was getting traded anywhere besides the Knicks," Lowry says. "I thought that was the trade, and Masai was truthfully telling me that I'm gonna trade you somewhere where you can be a starter. I honestly thought that was going to happen. I had two duffle bags ready to go. I've been traded once during the season and once during the offseason. So I was mentally prepared."

Ujiri was open with Lowry and his agent, Andy Miller. The Raptors were about to enter rebuilding mode. A deal sending Lowry to the New York Knicks seemed imminent.

http://espn.go.com/nba/allstar2015/s...oronto-raptors

[3inthekeon]

Found this in yesterdays Vantage Sports pregame notes:

INSIGHT: Given how infrequently the Wizards hedge when defending screens, DeRozan could find himself open from midrange more frequently than usual. This is important as DeRozan takes the lowest proportion of open shots in the league.

[white men can't jump]

Found this in yesterdays Vantage Sports pregame notes:

Wow...lowest proportion of open shots in the league. Not that surprising, but still...yeesh...

Better get out of here before another DD war starts.

[special1]

Is it time to trade Demar DeRozan

Wow...lowest proportion of open shots in the league. Not that surprising, but still...yeesh...

Better get out of here before another DD war starts.

Fewer open shots in the playoffs....that's why a guy like Ross crumbled vs Brooklyn...

Demar's used to those type of shots.... Notice how often he gets fouled on jumpers?


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[big boi]

Fewer open shots in the playoffs....that's why a guy like Ross crumbled vs Brooklyn...

Demar's used to those type of shots.... Notice how often he gets fouled on jumpers?


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Yeah, sounds like he's really used to them given that he has the lowest proportion of open shots in the league. No matter how hard you try to spin it, that is not a good stat. Demar takes bad shots. Too many of them. Particularly this year. Anyone that says different either isn't watching, doesn't understand what they're watching, or is just a troll.

[CNinja26]

As much as we may be spinning our wheels on this one, I'll jump in anyway.

If we are judging "contender" based on the success/failure of the tank movement, then Championship Contender is the only status that counts. Team Management had already stated that Championships were the goal, not conference championships.

If we are discussing generic team success, contender, to me, means do you have a realistic shot of winning the NBA title. On any given year, I say that it reserved for only a handful of teams (less than 6). You then have teams that are "close but no cigar", these are the teams that could contend for a conference birth, but are basically going to be underdogs to make or win the NBA Finals. I'd say the Raps are likely in this scenario.

It is conceivable that they could make the East Finals, and then possibly even win it, but I'd say their chances aren't particularly high. If the Raps could win out of the east, they'd need career best performances to match up with any team that comes out of the West. Again, possible but very unlikely.

I'd rank contenders roughly as:

GSW
Memphis
Chicago - if healthy
San Antonio
Houston
LAC

Fringe Status
Cleveland - they have the potential but are still a work in progress
Atlanta - still need to prove some things in the playoffs
Dallas
OKC - if healthy

Close but no cigar teams
Portland
Toronto
Washington


If you are only looking at "contending" for the east title, then you are adding lower teams, but it is also a much lower threshold. Winning the East isn't the same accomplishment as Winning the West. That is fact; the west is much stronger competition. The East, you could say Miami is a contender, or even Milwaukee, even though neither team is exactly a powerhouse even in the conference.

Personally, "contender" doesn't mean the East, it means hanging with the big boys and possibly winning a ring. At this point, only Chicago (if healthy) would put much scare into any Western team. If Atlanta plays well in the playoffs, then they could carry momentum into the Finals, but outside of those 2 teams, I very much doubt any Eastern team puts up much of a fight against whoever comes out of the west.

I think you pretty much nailed it. Except I'd stick LAC in fringe.

[Scraptor]

Yeah, sounds like he's really used to them given that he has the lowest proportion of open shots in the league. No matter how hard you try to spin it, that is not a good stat. Demar takes bad shots. Too many of them. Particularly this year. Anyone that says different either isn't watching, doesn't understand what they're watching, or is just a troll.

I love DeMar but I feel like idolizing Kobe may have misaligned his expectations from his abilities... You can take hard shots, but you have to make them! And not once every so often, but consistently. Further, Kobe was forced into hard shots because he was so good that he was getting crazy coverage on the floor, and some of his teams were not good. DeMar was far more effective last year when he was using his floor game to open up the floor and pick his spots.

It's frustrating because I'm not sure if it's ego or what, but as good as we've been this year, we clearly have another level in us if we play a better brand of basketball.

[special1]

Is it time to trade Demar DeRozan

Yeah, sounds like he's really used to them given that he has the lowest proportion of open shots in the league. No matter how hard you try to spin it, that is not a good stat. Demar takes bad shots. Too many of them. Particularly this year. Anyone that says different either isn't watching, doesn't understand what they're watching, or is just a troll.

Geez....

So anyone that doesn't agree with you or has a different take is either not watching, doesn't understand or is a troll? Wow

Ok there Big boi ....chill out


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[special1]

Is it time to trade Demar DeRozan

Lowest proportion of open shots.... Most of his shots are taken from the mid-range.... Teams know that if they give him space he'll make it.....it just means they play him tighter and he often sees 2 maybe 3 defenders.... Why would other teams scheme and place their best defenders on him if he wasn't successful at what he does?

Can someone answer that?

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[white men can't jump]

Geez....

So anyone that doesn't agree with you or has a different take is either not watching, doesn't understand or is a troll? Wow

Ok there Big boi ....chill out


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He's right though. There isn't really a positive spin on taking the lowest proportion of open shots.

[special1]

He's right though. There isn't really a positive spin on taking the lowest proportion of open shots.

Read my post above...


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[Other Scott]

It's not cool to accuse people of trolling just for having a different opinion though, and he's been doing quite a bit of that lately.