Everything Derozan

[Axel]

Demar won't take more than 15 mil. He wants to win and I don't think he cares about the money at all. He didn't even shake hands with bc after his last deal

Would you shake hands with BC? Just sayin

[Bandit]

There's been a few points raised in the last few posts that I want to address.

One of them is Derozan's desire to put up X amount of shots in a game. I don't believe that to be true at all, I think Derozan has a desire to be great and a desire to win. I think under Casey he's hearing that he'll be great and we will win if he takes those shots, and that we need to take those shots. What if he was hearing "Focus on your defense and creating offense for others, while being a threat at getting to the rim. That will make you great". When he played for team USA I never got the impression he was upset because he had a smaller role, he was happy to win gold and to improve.

The second is the ease to replace to Derozan, or how readily available he would be in a trade even as a #2-3 guy. I think he could be one of the premier #2-3 guys in this league. How easy would it be to replace Manu, or even Dwayne Wade at this point in his career? If he is willing to accept a role like I defined above then he could have as much value for us as those guys have for their teams. Yes you have to be willing to move him but I don't think you go shop him to simply make a deal thinking we get better.

Third point would be the comparison to players like Joe. Derozan has shown very little in the way to make me think that he would be a reflection of some of these guys. In play style ATM, I could concede that point. These players are traded away though because of a reluctance to adapt to their abilities. I don't think Derozan has that problem, and as long as he has a role and we are winning, shouldn't be a problem.

Fourth point - I think there's way too much concern over DD walking away from us or getting into financial problems. I trust MU to sign a decent contract that would match his worth, or even bring value. If we gamble on him and he turns out to not be able to adapt, we can't trade him for anything, and go into FA where he demands a max, then let him walk. It would open up space in our cap and we would lose a player who doesn't have a great value anyways... It's not like letting Bosh walk, or trading away VC for nothing. He isn't in that same caliber yet and we need to remember that. You end up paying talent that you want to keep, trade away talent you dont want, or let a useless player walk to open up options.

[mcHAPPY]

There's been a few points raised in the last few posts that I want to address.

One of them is Derozan's desire to put up X amount of shots in a game. I don't believe that to be true at all, I think Derozan has a desire to be great and a desire to win. I think under Casey he's hearing that he'll be great and we will win if he takes those shots, and that we need to take those shots. What if he was hearing "Focus on your defense and creating offense for others, while being a threat at getting to the rim. That will make you great". When he played for team USA I never got the impression he was upset because he had a smaller role, he was happy to win gold and to improve.

The second is the ease to replace to Derozan, or how readily available he would be in a trade even as a #2-3 guy. I think he could be one of the premier #2-3 guys in this league. How easy would it be to replace Manu, or even Dwayne Wade at this point in his career? If he is willing to accept a role like I defined above then he could have as much value for us as those guys have for their teams. Yes you have to be willing to move him but I don't think you go shop him to simply make a deal thinking we get better.

Third point would be the comparison to players like Joe. Derozan has shown very little in the way to make me think that he would be a reflection of some of these guys. In play style ATM, I could concede that point. These players are traded away though because of a reluctance to adapt to their abilities. I don't think Derozan has that problem, and as long as he has a role and we are winning, shouldn't be a problem.

Fourth point - I think there's way too much concern over DD walking away from us or getting into financial problems. I trust MU to sign a decent contract that would match his worth, or even bring value. If we gamble on him and he turns out to not be able to adapt, we can't trade him for anything, and go into FA where he demands a max, then let him walk. It would open up space in our cap and we would lose a player who doesn't have a great value anyways... It's not like letting Bosh walk, or trading away VC for nothing. He isn't in that same caliber yet and we need to remember that. You end up paying talent that you want to keep, trade away talent you dont want, or let a useless player walk to open up options.

Point 1: Taking a back seat on TEAM USA and taking a back seat on Toronto are not quite the same. I can't speak to his attitude because I don't know him and am not part of the team. My only concern is moving forward if he is a Raptor with a new coach that he would have difficulty adapting when he has had 4 years of free reign and a coach referring to him publicly as the type of son he'd want to have. But like your own observations above that is pure speculation and unfounded.

Point 2: In my ideal world, I see DeRozan traded for a top lottery pick in this year's draft. Those guys are unproven but it comes back to the ways to get elite talent. I think the best option for Toronto is through the draft. The best talent is typically available at the top of the draft. I dream of D'Angelo Russell in the back court at SG. But like anything it is a risk and there is no guarantee he becomes the player DD currently is. Luckily it would also free up more cap space to address other areas through free agency or trade.

Point 3: I'm not totally following that paragraph. Joe Johnson and Pau Gasol were traded away because they returned assets (prospects, picks, and cap space) to teams looking to change direction. If Masai were to fire Casey and go in another direction, it isn't a stretch to think he might want to trade a player who was the focus of that style of play. Has nothing to do with attitudes - it is just a shift in team style or management approach.

Point 4: I'm not a fan of DD's game but even I don't see DD as a useless player and wanting him to walk for nothing. If he walks for nothing that is a total fail and mismanagement of an asset on Masai's part.

[hotfuzz]

There's been a few points raised in the last few posts that I want to address.

One of them is Derozan's desire to put up X amount of shots in a game. I don't believe that to be true at all, I think Derozan has a desire to be great and a desire to win. I think under Casey he's hearing that he'll be great and we will win if he takes those shots, and that we need to take those shots. What if he was hearing "Focus on your defense and creating offense for others, while being a threat at getting to the rim. That will make you great". When he played for team USA I never got the impression he was upset because he had a smaller role, he was happy to win gold and to improve.

The second is the ease to replace to Derozan, or how readily available he would be in a trade even as a #2-3 guy. I think he could be one of the premier #2-3 guys in this league. How easy would it be to replace Manu, or even Dwayne Wade at this point in his career? If he is willing to accept a role like I defined above then he could have as much value for us as those guys have for their teams. Yes you have to be willing to move him but I don't think you go shop him to simply make a deal thinking we get better.

Third point would be the comparison to players like Joe. Derozan has shown very little in the way to make me think that he would be a reflection of some of these guys. In play style ATM, I could concede that point. These players are traded away though because of a reluctance to adapt to their abilities. I don't think Derozan has that problem, and as long as he has a role and we are winning, shouldn't be a problem.

Fourth point - I think there's way too much concern over DD walking away from us or getting into financial problems. I trust MU to sign a decent contract that would match his worth, or even bring value. If we gamble on him and he turns out to not be able to adapt, we can't trade him for anything, and go into FA where he demands a max, then let him walk. It would open up space in our cap and we would lose a player who doesn't have a great value anyways... It's not like letting Bosh walk, or trading away VC for nothing. He isn't in that same caliber yet and we need to remember that. You end up paying talent that you want to keep, trade away talent you dont want, or let a useless player walk to open up options.

Fair enough, but your point describes why I have no hope in Demar as long as Casey is here. His 'come hell or high-water' type offense is bound to lead to inefficient chucking.

[Puffer]

...I think under Casey he's hearing that he'll be great and we will win if he takes those shots, and that we need to take those shots. What if he was hearing "Focus on your defense and creating offense for others, while being a threat at getting to the rim. That will make you great". ...

And what is really great about this is that Masai knows if that is what is happening. The guys on the team regularly say things like "DeMar put us on his back, but that's what leaders do," so there may well be a lot of truth to what you are suggesting...that DeMar is simply fulfilling a role defined and described for him by Casey. At the same time DeMar regularly says things like "I'll do whatever it takes man, whether that be to shoot, pass, get to the free throw line or grab rebounds. Whatever coach wants me to do." Maybe more evidence.

[Bandit]

Point 1: Taking a back seat on TEAM USA and taking a back seat on Toronto are not quite the same. I can't speak to his attitude because I don't know him and am not part of the team. My only concern is moving forward if he is a Raptor with a new coach that he would have difficulty adapting when he has had 4 years of free reign and a coach referring to him publicly as the type of son he'd want to have. But like your own observations above that is pure speculation and unfounded.

Point 2: In my ideal world, I see DeRozan traded for a top lottery pick in this year's draft. Those guys are unproven but it comes back to the ways to get elite talent. I think the best option for Toronto is through the draft. The best talent is typically available at the top of the draft. I dream of D'Angelo Russell in the back court at SG. But like anything it is a risk and there is no guarantee he becomes the player DD currently is. Luckily it would also free up more cap space to address other areas through free agency or trade.

Point 3: I'm not totally following that paragraph. Joe Johnson and Pau Gasol were traded away because they returned assets (prospects, picks, and cap space) to teams looking to change direction. If Masai were to fire Casey and go in another direction, it isn't a stretch to think he might want to trade a player who was the focus of that style of play. Has nothing to do with attitudes - it is just a shift in team style or management approach.

Point 4: I'm not a fan of DD's game but even I don't see DD as a useless player and wanting him to walk for nothing. If he walks for nothing that is a total fail and mismanagement of an asset on Masai's part.

1 - True enough, it's simply how I choose to perceive him. The truth will have to be determined by Masai and how he sees Derozan.

2 - Yes well, If we got a lotto pick/wiggins out of it then sign me up, as I've said before (you could include lowry in that deal too to make it happen imo, but thats a whole different topic). If you were offered to move up to 10 though with a decent rotational NBA player I wouldn't do it, not even close.

3 - Joe Johnson was moved the same reason Lou was moved, addition by subtraction being the main focus and assets being a bonus. Pau was moved for assets. Total difference and why I focus on the Joe comparison. People say that getting rid of Derozan would be an immediate net positive and I disagree. His style of play ATM is what hurts the team but I see enough to have been convinced that he could be a positive. If we moved him in a Pau context then that's different.

4- I believe that isn't the case. A fail and mismanagement would be significantly over signing him. That locks us in financially, makes him hard to move, and doesn't give us an asset. Letting him walk keeps our doors open, and letting him walk after taking a chance on him his even more justifiable. You have to gamble in this league to make it big, some of those are going to fail though. The trick is making the ones that fail not be your doom. Not saying that it would count as a success, but it certainly isn't the worst out come and could be considered the best of a bad situation

[raptors999]

Regarding Demar and his salary, he doesn't seem to be a player other team would offer 20+ in free agency for. He might however be worth 20M+ to Toronto as a way to expand payroll. Right nowRaptors can not get Igoudala from GSW because they can't match salaries but they could if Demar was paid more. Essentialy Demars salary acts as a placeholder for a 20M+ player

[S.R.]

Regarding Demar and his salary, he doesn't seem to be a player other team would offer 20+ in free agency for. He might however be worth 20M+ to Toronto as a way to expand payroll. Right nowRaptors can not get Igoudala from GSW because they can't match salaries but they could if Demar was paid more. Essentialy Demars salary acts as a placeholder for a 20M+ player

This is an option with guys currently on the team whose contracts are coming up the next couple of years. There is the potential, if they're re-signed on solid contracts, to trade them for a roster upgrade in the future.

Man, the next couple of years are huge. If MU makes the right moves this team could see the addition of a franchise centerpiece player or prospect and a step to the next tier of 3rd/4th round playoff teams. Or he could just as easily whiff on trades and signings and we'll all be debating the merits of tanking for 5 more years....

[raptors999]

This is an option with guys currently on the team whose contracts are coming up the next couple of years. There is the potential, if they're re-signed on solid contracts, to trade them for a roster upgrade in the future.

Man, the next couple of years are huge. If MU makes the right moves this team could see the addition of a franchise centerpiece player or prospect and a step to the next tier of 3rd/4th round playoff teams. Or he could just as easily whiff on trades and signings and we'll all be debating the merits of tanking for 5 more years....

Both JV and Demar may be big contracts and Demar is more likely to be moved if a KD or even Rose become available. Not trying to move Demar but someone on good teams has to be paid near max for the team to be good and teams needs to be close to the luxury

[mcHAPPY]

1 - True enough, it's simply how I choose to perceive him. The truth will have to be determined by Masai and how he sees Derozan.

2 - Yes well, If we got a lotto pick/wiggins out of it then sign me up, as I've said before (you could include lowry in that deal too to make it happen imo, but thats a whole different topic). If you were offered to move up to 10 though with a decent rotational NBA player I wouldn't do it, not even close.

3 - Joe Johnson was moved the same reason Lou was moved, addition by subtraction being the main focus and assets being a bonus. Pau was moved for assets. Total difference and why I focus on the Joe comparison. People say that getting rid of Derozan would be an immediate net positive and I disagree. His style of play ATM is what hurts the team but I see enough to have been convinced that he could be a positive. If we moved him in a Pau context then that's different.

4- I believe that isn't the case. A fail and mismanagement would be significantly over signing him. That locks us in financially, makes him hard to move, and doesn't give us an asset. Letting him walk keeps our doors open, and letting him walk after taking a chance on him his even more justifiable. You have to gamble in this league to make it big, some of those are going to fail though. The trick is making the ones that fail not be your doom. Not saying that it would count as a success, but it certainly isn't the worst out come and could be considered the best of a bad situation

Agree to disagree on some things it is!

With regards to JJ I don't recall it being an attitude issue on his part. Danny Ferry came in and went in another direction which JJ was not part of. JJ was a fantastic player just not up to the contract. That is understandable based on how NBA contracts are structured based on years experience and resigning raises. I don't see him in same situation as Gay at all. Gay was instantaneous positive results. Hawks minus JJ threaded water for two seasons. It was not until 2 full seasons later they became what they currently are and that also involved a new coCh, system, and deletion of josh smith.

[acesup]

This is the thread I was looking for. Last season I was watching most of the Raptors games, no matter that the time zone differs a quite a bit for me. This season as Houston started playing Donatas Motiejunas, I shifted to their teams. There are couple of reasons. The most important one is Demar Derozan. I am sick and tired of him. There is no chance to advance with him to the second round. He has no game besides jump shot with a pump fake going before. His game is not build for the playoffs. If Lowry will be there like the last years playoffs, Raptors might stand a chance against the Bucks. Moreover, JV needs to get more touches for his development. It's either him or DD that need to be traded. During the off season Masai needs to make some drastic moves to make in order to build a solid playoff team. Send DD some where else to shoot his contested shots and we can get a more serious team player that will more the ball a little more. This guy still cares mostly about points and rebounds. P.S. DC is a bad selection for the long term.. Hero ball understanding and much more nonsense. Look at the tops two teams of each conference also include Spurs. These teams show basketball that entertains while watching Raptors suck because the turtle face takes every third shot mostly missing them.

[OldSkoolCool]

I want DD gone for 3 reasons

1) he is inefficient no matter how you look at his stats

2) his greatest value to the team may be to help aquire a number 1 guy. Even if it is Harden style with picks.

3) he wont fit into the "3 and key" style where all perimeter players are able to hit threes.

Moving him is a key component in moving from "treadmill" to "relevant"

[Jrice9]

I want DD gone for 3 reasons

1) he is inefficient no matter how you look at his stats

2) his greatest value to the team may be to help aquire a number 1 guy. Even if it is Harden style with picks.

3) he wont fit into the "3 and key" style where all perimeter players are able to hit threes.

Moving him is a key component in moving from "treadmill" to "relevant"

Name me the trade for the star?

Like seriously, name me a trade that is even reasonably going to happen that features DeMar for a true alister.

Teams trading those guys are rebuilding and don't want a guy who is in his prime and isn't someone (By your own achnowldgement ) who can't become a star himself

[OldSkoolCool]

Name me the trade for the star?

Like seriously, name me a trade that is even reasonably going to happen that features DeMar for a true alister.

Teams trading those guys are rebuilding and don't want a guy who is in his prime and isn't someone (By your own achnowldgement ) who can't become a star himself

DD for picks

Picks for all-star

ala Harden style

It doesnt need to be a straight trade. DD may fetch an unkown future pick, which may increase its value with time, and may be packaged with other picks to in sum have more value than DD alone.

Much to learn young grasshopper

[Uncle_Si]

I think DD could thrive in a motion offense like ATL, GS and Spurs. The raptors have always had ISO coaches but he's shown he can move the ball when he decides to and I think he would buy in to any system the coach played.