Everything Derozan

[white men can't jump]

I'd have to think Bosh is pretty high as well.

Oh shit, I completely forgot about him! Seriously.

Still not as high as Carter's. Lowry's last year was better than any single season Bosh put out too. Bosh was pretty consistent with his though. Maybe more consistent than anybody from year to year.

[Chr1s1anL]

Well, Lowry leads the team by far over the last 2 years in Win shares. So, clearly at least Lowry contributes more to winning, as that definitely aligns with the eye test as well. DeMar was 2nd last year, and 7th(!!) this year. And while the injury impacted his WS total this year, it's very unlikely he would've been much higher on the team given his WS/48 plummeted this year (last year at .141, this year down to .090).

Also, Vince Carter was in an even more obvious 'leading role', and has put up the two highest WS totals of any player ever on the Raptors.

So Kyle Lowry has very obviously contributed more to winning in this incarnation of the team. And Vince Carter easily has had the biggest impact on wins for any single Raptor ever.

I meant previous Raptors. Obviously Kyle Lowry had a big part in it. This is the best duo in raptor history. That's why I don't get ppl wanting to break them up.

[white men can't jump]

I meant previous Raptors. Obviously Kyle Lowry had a big part in. This is the best duo in raptor history. That's why I don't get ppl wanting to break them up.

But I counted previous Raptor 'leading role' guy...and even forgot about Bosh. Both performed better than DeMar.

[Chr1s1anL]

But I counted previous Raptor 'leading role' guy...and even forgot about Bosh. Both performed better than DeMar.

They can perform better but, the end result is that DD has won more in his tenure. I believe Bosh had 3(not sure correct if wrong) playoffs wins as a raptor. DD has 3 as well, with one less season played as a raptor. VC has more playoffs but, Dd/lowry have more regular season wins I believe.

[Primer]

I meant previous Raptors. Obviously Kyle Lowry had a big part in it. This is the best duo in raptor history. That's why I don't get ppl wanting to break them up.

The phrase "best in raptors history" basically means mediocre by league standards. The raptors history is garbage, so being the best garbage should not be considered impressive. For example, 49 wins is not impressive, were the only team in NBA history without a 50 win season, we shouldn't be so happy about yet another sub 50 win season. It's like your kid gets a D in every class, and finally comes home with a C. You really shouldn't be happy about that when your goal is for the kid to get some A's.

[white men can't jump]

They can perform better but, the end result is that DD has won more in his tenure. I believe Bosh had 3(not sure correct if wrong) playoffs wins as a raptor. DD has 3 as well, with one less season played as a raptor. VC has more playoffs but, Dd/lowry have more regular season wins I believe.

Bosh never had very good teams around him. VC had some decent pieces, but pretty much exclusively role players. Neither guy had someone to take the pressure off him the way DeMar does, and DeMar does worse than both despite that.

Also, counting raw wins in no way backs up any point.

[S.R.]

Well, Lowry leads the team by far over the last 2 years in Win shares. So, clearly at least Lowry contributes more to winning, as that definitely aligns with the eye test as well. DeMar was 2nd last year, and 7th(!!) this year. And while the injury impacted his WS total this year, it's very unlikely he would've been much higher on the team given his WS/48 plummeted this year (last year at .141, this year down to .090).

Also, Vince Carter was in an even more obvious 'leading role', and has put up the two highest WS totals of any player ever on the Raptors.

So Kyle Lowry has very obviously contributed more to winning in this incarnation of the team. And Vince Carter easily has had the biggest impact on wins for any single Raptor ever.

Raptors definitely won more this year when DeMar was out and Lowry was leading the team. During DeMar's "great finish," the team played .500 ball.

I like DeMar and also think he gets over-criticized here, but there's no need to swing all the way in the other direction in defending him. The guy has a great attitude (except for his opinion of his own shot selection) and work ethic, and has improved in ways that Terrence Ross can only dream about, but in the big picture DeMar is not that good of a player. He's not All-NBA, he's not a perennial All-Star, he's not first team USA (only gets on in a year where most primary guys sit out), he's not the #1 guy on many rosters in the league, and he's not a Hall of Famer at this rate. Other teams are building around #1 guys that are all of those things, and the Toronto Raptors are not. This is a problem if your best player is about to demand a max contract in a year...

[white men can't jump]

Raptors definitely won more this year when DeMar was out and Lowry was leading the team. During DeMar's "great finish," the team played .500 ball.

I like DeMar and also think he gets over-criticized here, but there's no need to swing all the way in the other direction in defending him. The guy has a great attitude (except for his opinion of his own shot selection) and work ethic, and has improved in ways that Terrence Ross can only dream about, but in the big picture DeMar is not that good of a player. He's not All-NBA, he's not a perennial All-Star, he's not first team USA (only gets on in a year where most primary guys sit out), he's not the #1 guy on many rosters in the league, and he's not a Hall of Famer at this rate. Other teams are building around #1 guys that are all of those things, and the Toronto Raptors are not. This is a problem if your best player is about to demand a max contract in a year...

Yet on our team, his usage is stupidly high, putting him up at 10th in the league this past year. That's pretty crazy. All the starters in the top 20 are better players than him. And the subs understandably see a bump in their usage since they account for a huge chunk of bench offence for their teams, and get to monopolize the offence for stretches.

[Uncle_Si]

Yet on our team, his usage is stupidly high, putting him up at 10th in the league this past year. That's pretty crazy. All the starters in the top 20 are better players than him. And the subs understandably see a bump in their usage since they account for a huge chunk of bench offence for their teams, and get to monopolize the offence for stretches.

Raptors have the same problem the leafs do. And lots of other teams for that matter. They put guys that are best off as #2-#4 options on a team and make the the #1 option. Probably because it's so hard to get a real #1 option, especially in basketball.

DeMar is a great #3 option on a winning, championship contending team. Problem is, so is Lowry. And we don't have anyone else on the team that would be considered a starter on a championship contending team, except for maybe JV if he was properly used.

[2KJ]

Raptors definitely won more this year when DeMar was out and Lowry was leading the team. During DeMar's "great finish," the team played .500 ball.

I like DeMar and also think he gets over-criticized here, but there's no need to swing all the way in the other direction in defending him. The guy has a great attitude (except for his opinion of his own shot selection) and work ethic, and has improved in ways that Terrence Ross can only dream about, but in the big picture DeMar is not that good of a player. He's not All-NBA, he's not a perennial All-Star, he's not first team USA (only gets on in a year where most primary guys sit out), he's not the #1 guy on many rosters in the league, and he's not a Hall of Famer at this rate. Other teams are building around #1 guys that are all of those things, and the Toronto Raptors are not. This is a problem if your best player is about to demand a max contract in a year...

To be fair, the only true superstars in his draft class are Harden and Curry. Which is why I'm still pissed at Colangelo for failing to rebuild an acquire legit talent. Instead of rebuilding for a better future, we're stuck in mediocrity - so bad that we're not a playoff contender, but too good for a lottery pick.

I do agree with you that he's no superstar, but he's a good piece to add a superstar to.

[white men can't jump]

Raptors have the same problem the leafs do. And lots of other teams for that matter. They put guys that are best off as #2-#4 options on a team and make the the #1 option. Probably because it's so hard to get a real #1 option, especially in basketball.

DeMar is a great #3 option on a winning, championship contending team. Problem is, so is Lowry. And we don't have anyone else on the team that would be considered a starter on a championship contending team, except for maybe JV if he was properly used.

Well that's why so many of us want the coach gone. If you struggle to find a #1 option, which is damn hard, the best plan is to not develop an offence that depends on such a dynamic. It's more difficult to build a team-oriented, communal attack, but it's also much more sustainable if you lack that #1 guy. Can anyone see Casey implementing such an offence?

[planetmars]

If anyone wants to see the voting results for the all-nba team you can find them here:
http://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-cont...ng-Results.pdf

Really hard to see so I had to bring out Windows magnifier.

The guys that voted for DD were:

Bob Rathburn
David Mayo
Mike Gorman

The guy that voted for Lowry was:

Cedric Maxwell.


No homer votes.

[Uncle_Si]

Well that's why so many of us want the coach gone. If you struggle to find a #1 option, which is damn hard, the best plan is to not develop an offence that depends on such a dynamic. It's more difficult to build a team-oriented, communal attack, but it's also much more sustainable if you lack that #1 guy. Can anyone see Casey implementing such an offence?

I agree totally, could anyone agree on a true #1 option in Atlanta? Coach has made the problem worse, not better. That's a problem.

[white men can't jump]

I agree totally, could anyone agree on a true #1 option in Atlanta? Coach has made the problem worse, not better. That's a problem.

Yup. And sure, Atlanta has had, and will have more issues in the playoffs without a true #1 option. Sometimes you just need a guy to get you a bucket in ISO. Then they have guys like MIllsap or Teague trying to create...but that's when their system fails. That is our system...

[S.R.]

I agree totally, could anyone agree on a true #1 option in Atlanta? Coach has made the problem worse, not better. That's a problem.

That nice stretch post-Gay trade was when the ball movement looked the best and the Raptors play was the most equitable. The more iso hero-ball they played, the worse everything got. This team actually has a depth of offensive talent, and it ended up wasted. My main hope for DeMar was actually that a new coach might help him with his shot selection and with playing within the flow of a more team-oriented system - that would help him take the next step. I'll be very surprised if another year of Casey will prove good for DeMar's development. DD is the kind of player who still needs a coach to tell him what to do.