i love this thread thank you multipaul finally a reason to inflate my posts.
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DunkinDerozan wrote: View Postdidn;t mean to insult you just wondering what criteria you use when evaluating defense so that next time I watch a game I can understand what constitutes a good defensive player. Don't be shy on your definition you can list your primary secondary criteria etc block shots is just one aspect I want your naked definition.
I look at advanced stats to basically confirm or contradict what I see on the court. Stats should never be used to create an opinion. Only to back up an opinion or make one question it.
Blocks and steals are probably the last thing I look at, because they can be incredibly deceiving, as I discussed earlier. Lots of players have averaged good bpg and spg without playing good defense.
And by the way, when you claim someone is too scared to respond, that's an attempt to insult them.Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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DunkinDerozan wrote: View Postdidn;t mean to insult you just wondering what criteria you use when evaluating defense so that next time I watch a game I can understand what constitutes a good defensive player. Don't be shy on your definition you can list your primary secondary criteria etc block shots is just one aspect I want your naked definition.
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bargnani is a lazy heartless punk, when he is motivated he can do alot of things i remember a close game last year vs the wiz where he blocked 4 shots in a row and got every rebound in sight.... but sometimes he goes in the game with a horrible mentality like to say " is this game over yet ? i got hot date tonight"
demar wont be our first option nor franchise player i think of him as a complimentary player i think we still need to search for that guy via draft.
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Multipaul wrote: View PostThat's what I'm saying, when AB's not playing , DD just disappears. At least Bargs tries to step up and be the man, tries to take over gams. it doesnt always work, but he gives it a shot. Demar just turtles yo.
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Multipaul wrote: View PostWell, I hear your points bro, BUT.....
DD is a starter. He as put in as a starter.
Bargs wasnt.
If DD is gonna be a starter on our team at one of the most important and hard to defend positions in the league, he has to be better, or else we are doomed for his "maturation" period
Secondly, I fully expect us to be a fairly bad team (doomed) for the next few seasons regardless of DD does. Anyone who thinks this team is going to contend next season is deluding themselves, I'm personally hoping we can maybe squeak in at 8th and I think I'm being super optimistic. It we make Demar our #1 scorer and build around him and Ed I think we can expect to wait quite a while before we would be considered a threat to the title since both have a tonne of developing to do."Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."
-Churchill
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Tim W. wrote: View PostA good defensive player is a player who, you know, plays good defense. Lots of players have gotten steals and blocks while playing poor defense and visa versa. Joe Dumars was one of the greatest perimeter defenders in the last 30 years and he never averaged more than 1.1 spg. His teammate, Laimbeer, was an excellent defender, but has a career bpg average of 0.9.
Tyrus Thomas is a spectacular shot blocker, but has a ways to go before he'll be a good defender. Same goes for JaVale McGee.
In fact, the notion that shot blocking does not necessarily equal good defense is not a new or even remotely controversial opinion.
And I've never, ever changed my definition of a good defender, so I really don't know why you would say that other than to try and insult me. I've often talked about how you can be a good shotblocker and not a good defender.
I guess ill just help you out, a good defensive player or playing good defense is the ability to keep the offensive player infront of you, preventing him from scoring the basketball. I dont think Bargnani, Calderon, or Demar are bad defensive players per say, they are able to keep their man infront of them most of the time, what makes them "bad" is the Raptors is a bad defensive team, as a whole. Theyre unable to switch on screens, or play help defense. Even the best players or best "defensive" players as you point them out do get beat off the dribble from time to time, but what "masks" this fact is other players on their team are able to switch or provide help defense at appropriate times. The Raptors, most of the time, can not.
Like i always say, put Bargs beside a solid, defensive Center and he'll probably, and i say it again, PROBABLY, will be alright. Dirk has Tyson, Garnett had Perk, Bosh has Anthony, so on and so forth. But it doesnt stop there, you need to get a solid SF too SG and PG.
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tbihis wrote: View PostSorry to butt in your lively discussion here, i know we've had our back and forths in the past Tim and we've always come to terms in the end but i always notice you preach of defense as an integral part of the game and which i acknowledge, but you havent really defined "good defense" concretely. I dont think a definition of a good defensive player is "one who plays good defense". A block or shot block is clearly defined as "defensive player legally deflects a field goal attempt from an offensive player". And a steal is defined as "defensive player legally causes a turnover by his positive, aggressive action." A bad defensive play only results in 2 situations, a foul and a basket by the offensive team. Clearly, a block and steal constitute "good defense", i dont know how else you can quantify that.
I guess ill just help you out, a good defensive player or playing good defense is the ability to keep the offensive player infront of you, preventing him from scoring the basketball. I dont think Bargnani, Calderon, or Demar are bad defensive players per say, they are able to keep their man infront of them most of the time, what makes them "bad" is the Raptors is a bad defensive team, as a whole. Theyre unable to switch on screens, or play help defense. Even the best players or best "defensive" players as you point them out do get beat off the dribble from time to time, but what "masks" this fact is other players on their team are able to switch or provide help defense at appropriate times. The Raptors, most of the time, can not.
Like i always say, put Bargs beside a solid, defensive Center and he'll probably, and i say it again, PROBABLY, will be alright. Dirk has Tyson, Garnett had Perk, Bosh has Anthony, so on and so forth. But it doesnt stop there, you need to get a solid SF too SG and PG.
And you may have missed my last post where I went into more detail about what a good defensive player does.
As for Bargnani, I don't think there's any way you can call Bargnani anything but a poor defensive player. He doesn't put in a consistent effort, too often gives deep position, gets beat far too much, doesn't rotate well and doesn't seem to know where to be a lot of the time. He gives up too many offensive rebounds, doesn't get enough defensive rebounds, doesn't play the pick and roll well at all, will either over commit or under commit when he has to help. The notion that Bargnani is only a poor defensive player because of the system he plays in discounts the fact that neither Amir nor Davis play poor defense despite playing in the same system.
I think having a poor defensive team can highlight a players poor defense, but anyone who knows what to look for can see the difference between a decent defender on a bad team and a bad defender on a bad team. It's why I defended Bosh's defense last season when people said he was as bad as Bargnani. It's not that Bosh was a good defender, but he obviously knows what to do most of the time. Effort is not always there but he's not a liability on that end of the court.Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
Follow me on Twitter.
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Paul I give you props for getting over 105 thread responses man. It's great fodder to put one player down just to prop another. It almost feels like Demar and Andrea are playing in different teams the way you isolate the two.“The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King
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Balls of Steel wrote: View PostPaul I give you props for getting over 105 thread responses man. It's great fodder to put one player down just to prop another. It almost feels like Demar and Andrea are playing in different teams the way you isolate the two.
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Multipaul wrote: View PostWell, I hear your points bro, BUT.....
DD is a starter. He as put in as a starter.
Bargs wasnt.
If DD is gonna be a starter on our team at one of the most important and hard to defend positions in the league, he has to be better, or else we are doomed for his "maturation" period
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Brasky wrote: View PostBut he's not our future franchise guy, so what are you crying about?
Also MultiPaul, I remember my post about Amir having more blocks than Barg had rebounds and you stated that that post so be in the Barg post not the everything raptors. So what gives here?
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Balls of Steel wrote: View PostPaul I give you props for getting over 105 thread responses man. It's great fodder to put one player down just to prop another. It almost feels like Demar and Andrea are playing in different teams the way you isolate the two.
"How dare ye insult the great Demar"!
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