Everything Derozan

[Snooch]

You're being intentionally disingenuous, right? If you read one sentence beyond that point (which is perfectly valid in the discussion about defensive statistics), you'd see that I didn't even present it as an argument, I immediately said we should, instead of applying the mathematical average approach, group the players into bins and that if we did so I would place DeMar at the bottom end of the "average" bin, or perhaps the top end of the "below average" bin.



That's really good. You did it again. If anyone actually watched DeRozan they would agree with you. Of course. It's not possible that anyone who disagrees with you actually watches any basketball, right?

I agree that DeMar was above average on the team last year. Of course, above average on last year's team does not make him an average-to-above-average defensive player. Last year's team was terrible defensively.



So he's average for a shooting guard - but who says that the average shooting guard is an average defender? Some positions tend to be more heavily skewed to defence or offence just based on the talent in the league at the time. Right now there are a lot of good defensive bigs (this is almost always the case due to the simple reality that height makes a big difference in this game). Same goes for SF - the advent of the 3 and D wing has brought in more defensive specialists. But ball handling offensive wings tend to be SG's (obviously there are exceptions) and obviously since they are valued for their offence their defence is unsurprisingly not great, on average.

i wouldnt even say he was above average on this team, he was 1 point ahead of gv in defensive rating, and his drpm was terrible as well.

But hes great in the system /s

[SkywalkerAC]

So he's average for a shooting guard - but who says that the average shooting guard is an average defender? Some positions tend to be more heavily skewed to defence or offence just based on the talent in the league at the time. Right now there are a lot of good defensive bigs (this is almost always the case due to the simple reality that height makes a big difference in this game). Same goes for SF - the advent of the 3 and D wing has brought in more defensive specialists. But ball handling offensive wings tend to be SG's (obviously there are exceptions) and obviously since they are valued for their offence their defence is unsurprisingly not great, on average.

But why wouldn't we want to evaluate him relative to his position? This is why Carroll being next to him is so important relative to Ross especially, so we can grind teams that have smaller shooting guards in the rotation. Sure, taking every player in the league into account, he's going to be below average, but that's not who he's matching up against.

[JWash]

the only thing correct about this entire post is the criticism of demar, you of course are exagerating any point made to try and make it sound outlandish so that it fits in with fans insistance on claiming that nothing is wrong, nothing is bad, all is great.

He is below average defensively, If every single advanced metric available as well as impartial eyes of opposing fans, commentators, coaches and media agrees with that but you want to believe that it isnt true then good on ya. Believe in santa too?

no one said he couldnt do anything with the ball in his hands, just said that he isnt very good at it. he is far from elite, and honestly i dont know if i would call him average, he just learned a spin dribble last season...6 years in the league before he couold break out a spin move without loosing the handle!

He isnt an effective passer, again this has been pointed out many times, demar generally passes when he gets himself into trouble, not before. as proved by opposing coaches, media, fans hell even our own commentators and media...remember the white board in the visitors locker room?

He is a poor shooter, period. and a small sample of him making a few corner threes does not change that. at his absolute best ever over a 6 year career he hit 33% from corner threes, and it isnt like he took 100 of them, so even that is a small example.

No one said anything about his ego, but he is used to being the man, and it is visable that he does seem to go into a my turn every now and then, like MeJay ford used to at time.

And team usa is not a valid point at all, he was a lesser talent, in a much lesser role. Karl malone on the dream team 92 was playing limited inutes in a limited role, you think he would accept a back seat on his team in Utah? Not saying Demar wouldnt I dont fucking care if he does or not, but the POINT OF IT IS THIS, he lacks the skills to be that secondary players as his defense is subpar and so is his shooting. Traditional qualities of great teamas' secondary players.

#openyoureyes

What in the actual fuck are you talking about?

DeRozan shot 38.6% from the corner last year, 38.5% the year before, 34.3% the year before that and 40% the year before that.

[JWash]

You're being intentionally disingenuous, right? If you read one sentence beyond that point (which is perfectly valid in the discussion about defensive statistics), you'd see that I didn't even present it as an argument, I immediately said we should, instead of applying the mathematical average approach, group the players into bins and that if we did so I would place DeMar at the bottom end of the "average" bin, or perhaps the top end of the "below average" bin.



That's really good. You did it again. If anyone actually watched DeRozan they would agree with you. Of course. It's not possible that anyone who disagrees with you actually watches any basketball, right?

I agree that DeMar was above average on the team last year. Of course, above average on last year's team does not make him an average-to-above-average defensive player. Last year's team was terrible defensively.



So he's average for a shooting guard - but who says that the average shooting guard is an average defender? Some positions tend to be more heavily skewed to defence or offence just based on the talent in the league at the time. Right now there are a lot of good defensive bigs (this is almost always the case due to the simple reality that height makes a big difference in this game). Same goes for SF - the advent of the 3 and D wing has brought in more defensive specialists. But ball handling offensive wings tend to be SG's (obviously there are exceptions) and obviously since they are valued for their offence their defence is unsurprisingly not great, on average.

At this point you're just purely debating semantics and i'm done arguing whether DeRozan is average on defense with you. You haven't really proven otherwise. He's not a sieve, he's not lockdown. He's adequate. He won't hurt you defensively, he won't Iguodala it up and limit LeBron James either. Done discussing it.

[Snooch]

What in the actual fuck are you talking about?

DeRozan shot 38.6% from the corner last year, 38.5% the year before, 34.3% the year before that and 40% the year before that.

i looked on a different site not basketball refernce, I will go with your numbers. does not change my opinion that he is a shit shooter, because he is. he is a good freethrow shooter, he should shoot from there more.

I dont see much to praise for 50 attempts and still not at 40% on what is considered the most effective shot in all of basketball.

Amir made 33% of his last season
ross was a 41,

rubio once shot 50% from there.

So i dont really care that the number i posted was a little different, he is still inherently a bad shooter. Any argument against that is purely idiotic.

[Snooch]

At this point you're just purely debating semantics and i'm done arguing whether DeRozan is average on defense with you. You haven't really proven otherwise. He's not a sieve, he's not lockdown. He's adequate. He won't hurt you defensively, he won't Iguodala it up and limit LeBron James either. Done discussing it.

you haven't done anything in any of your arguements to attempt to support or prove anything, so you should stop arguing it, becvause you have been proven time and time again that you are wrong on the matter.

[raptors999]

you haven't done anything in any of your arguements to attempt to support or prove anything, so you should stop arguing it, becvause you have been proven time and time again that you are wrong on the matter.

Whether Demar is a net positive or negative isn't as important as how little defensive responsibility he has. He is usually guarding the least dangerous player. Rather his usage drop while he guards better players. He might be the worst player to be given that treatment.

[DanH]

At this point you're just purely debating semantics and i'm done arguing whether DeRozan is average on defense with you. You haven't really proven otherwise. He's not a sieve, he's not lockdown. He's adequate. He won't hurt you defensively, he won't Iguodala it up and limit LeBron James either. Done discussing it.

Delightful. Next time I need to be told whether my contribution to a debate is semantics while yours is crystallized truth, I'll know who to come to. I've had disagreements with so many people on so many topics and on, frankly, so many sites, and yet you have taken the cake on condescension.

I'd agree with the above statement if you modify it slightly. He's adequate as a defender IF he is in the lesser defensive wing role. You go out and grab a 1A guy on offence and DeRozan suddenly needs to be the one carrying the load on the other end, and I'd expect him to fall far, far short of adequate. And that's kind of the whole point, isn't it? Because no one really believes he can be a 1A guy, right?

[Wild-ling#1]

I just want to jump in and say that if you are using plus-minus to evaluate a hockey player, you are doing it wrong.

And the Bozak point is a good one, and relates directly to this discussion. Ultimately, if people are going to argue that DeRozan is well suited to a second or third option role, then he will need to be paid accordingly - ie not the max, or particularly close to it. If the Raptors are going to keep DeRozan, it will be with a contract that will dictate his being first option, or at the very least infringe heavily on the flexibility needed to add a true first option.

The issue with Bozak is he is paid as a bottom-tier first line C, or a high end 2nd line C. Many believe he is not worthy of either post, so he should be removed from the team so as to free up that money for players who can actually play on the top 2 lines.

No. I was only saying Bozak's +/- might improve if he wasn't playing out of position (a 2nd line center facing-off against true no. 1's) and on a better team. I believe this is the clear consensus on Bozak (as with Stajan - whom I loved). As such, I was not, ab initio, evaluating Bozak's overall play, per se, by referencing his +/-. And so I do not think I can fairly be accused of "doing it wrong".

And so again, "no", as goes the inference you have taken, here, as regards DD. DD's defence (and various stats, actually) may improve by virtue of not having to guard 3's, for example.

As well, I don't think anyone can say, with certainty, that a 25-year-old player has hit his "ceiling". Or might not benefit from better team-mates or back-ups. As much as you may believe it - and though it might turn out to be true - I do not think the view can be asserted with anything approaching certainty. Period.

But you clearly want to construe "average" - not as "middle-of-the-pack" - but as (perhaps slightly) "below average". This, again, may be factually accurate. I honestly do not feel qualified to pronounce upon this.

But you have not construed what I have said correctly - or even well, I would say. And while you are entitled to your view - and are almost certainly more knowledgeable than me .... I will still suggest that you are over-reaching with it.

Please take the good with the bad, here. I am not calling you an "idiot". Quite far from it, actually, Dan. As you know, I have quoted your views on other comment boards before now.

[Superjudge]

Meh.

stats.... bleh.

When DD leaves and you have nobody to fill his shoes.... you might see things a bit differently.

He's an average defender in the NBA. Not bad, not good.... its a non discussion.

He hits the glass well.
He puts a shit load of pressure on opposing bigs by attacking.

He shoots way too many contested fade aways

he's not without blemishes.... but damn... the negative shit he gets on this board.... mind boggling.

[Wild-ling#1]

the only thing correct about this entire post is the criticism of demar, you of course are exagerating any point made to try and make it sound outlandish so that it fits in with fans insistance on claiming that nothing is wrong, nothing is bad, all is great.

He is below average defensively, If every single advanced metric available as well as impartial eyes of opposing fans, commentators, coaches and media agrees with that but you want to believe that it isnt true then good on ya. Believe in santa too?

no one said he couldnt do anything with the ball in his hands, just said that he isnt very good at it. he is far from elite, and honestly i dont know if i would call him average, he just learned a spin dribble last season...6 years in the league before he couold break out a spin move without loosing the handle!

He isnt an effective passer, again this has been pointed out many times, demar generally passes when he gets himself into trouble, not before. as proved by opposing coaches, media, fans hell even our own commentators and media...remember the white board in the visitors locker room?

He is a poor shooter, period. and a small sample of him making a few corner threes does not change that. at his absolute best ever over a 6 year career he hit 33% from corner threes, and it isnt like he took 100 of them, so even that is a small example.

No one said anything about his ego, but he is used to being the man, and it is visable that he does seem to go into a my turn every now and then, like MeJay ford used to at time.

And team usa is not a valid point at all, he was a lesser talent, in a much lesser role. Karl malone on the dream team 92 was playing limited inutes in a limited role, you think he would accept a back seat on his team in Utah? Not saying Demar wouldnt I dont fucking care if he does or not, but the POINT OF IT IS THIS, he lacks the skills to be that secondary players as his defense is subpar and so is his shooting. Traditional qualities of great teamas' secondary players.

#openyoureyes

I believe ordinary decorum, and the rules of the comment board, forbid the kind of reply which immediately springs to mind, after having read this.

And I think you know it.

But I think I can say that your mind is clearly closed as regards DD's talents, abilities, value and any room for improvement. And so I also think, with this post and others close by, you have functionally abandoned any real pretense of being prepared to participate in a good faith discussion of these matters.

Do you disagree? Am I wrong?

[DanH]

Obviously no one can say, with certainty, that DeMar will not improve defensively. Of course, stating things with certainty is not possible anywhere in terms of future predictions. I can make an equally viable statement that no one can say, with certainty, that Bargnani won't be DPOY next season. What I and others are saying is that we consider it unlikely that he makes significant improvements to his defensive game. What value is there in pointing out that we can't be 100% sure of something?

My point on plus-minus in hockey is that it is a volatile stat that carries no real value due to the small sampling of NHL goals (even strength goals, at that) relative to playing time. NBA plus-minus when used as a raw stat is pretty perilous, but at least has very nice sample sizes, so can be adjusted to be a useful evaluative tool. Drawing a parallel between the two is not really comparing apples to apples.

DD's defence and various stats MAY improve if he doesn't have to guard threes, etc. And his defence and various stats MAY get much worse if he has to take on a primary defensive role due to a real 1A offensive option being picked up. I happen to think the latter is far more likely.

[DanH]

Meh.

stats.... bleh.

When DD leaves and you have nobody to fill his shoes.... you might see things a bit differently.

He's an average defender in the NBA. Not bad, not good.... its a non discussion.

He hits the glass well.
He puts a shit load of pressure on opposing bigs by attacking.

He shoots way too many contested fade aways

he's not without blemishes.... but damn... the negative shit he gets on this board.... mind boggling.

My only argument is he is not worth the contract he is bound to get. For various reasons, including his lack of above-average defence, his lack of efficiency in a primary scoring role, and his unproven ability to be an effective secondary scorer (which also ties into the defence argument as it becomes so much more important if he is guarding the best wing to save our new 1A guy for offence).

The context of these arguments, it is important to note, is based on his likely status as a max or near max contract earner. Obviously blemishes are to be expected in any player - but too many blemishes on a guy who will eat 25% of your cap can be pretty problematic in building a team.

[JWash]

Delightful. Next time I need to be told whether my contribution to a debate is semantics while yours is crystallized truth, I'll know who to come to. I've had disagreements with so many people on so many topics and on, frankly, so many sites, and yet you have taken the cake on condescension.

I'd agree with the above statement if you modify it slightly. He's adequate as a defender IF he is in the lesser defensive wing role. You go out and grab a 1A guy on offence and DeRozan suddenly needs to be the one carrying the load on the other end, and I'd expect him to fall far, far short of adequate. And that's kind of the whole point, isn't it? Because no one really believes he can be a 1A guy, right?

This is a strawman, period. Any average defender is going to get lit up by an elite player. Harrison Barnes is probably a bit above average and was getting absolutely annihilated by LeBron in the finals. Not being able to stop elite players doesn't mean you're a below average defender. Only above average to elite defenders can do that, and even they get torched at times. Hell Melo and LeBron dropped 60 on Gilchrist in back to back games a year ago.

[Wild-ling#1]

Obviously no one can say, with certainty, that DeMar will not improve defensively. Of course, stating things with certainty is not possible anywhere in terms of future predictions. I can make an equally viable statement that no one can say, with certainty, that Bargnani won't be DPOY next season. What I and others are saying is that we consider it unlikely that he makes significant improvements to his defensive game. What value is there in pointing out that we can't be 100% sure of something?

My point on plus-minus in hockey is that it is a volatile stat that carries no real value due to the small sampling of NHL goals (even strength goals, at that) relative to playing time. NBA plus-minus when used as a raw stat is pretty perilous, but at least has very nice sample sizes, so can be adjusted to be a useful evaluative tool. Drawing a parallel between the two is not really comparing apples to apples.

DD's defence and various stats MAY improve if he doesn't have to guard threes, etc. And his defence and various stats MAY get much worse if he has to take on a primary defensive role due to a real 1A offensive option being picked up. I happen to think the latter is far more likely.

Honestly, I think this discussion is a shame. You clearly care about this stuff. You're not a mere agent provocateur. Or dumb.

But you can concede nothing on this point.

Do you really think, for example, that the chances of DeMar improving, for various reasons, are anything like those of Barngani being DPOY next year? If not, why equate the two?

(I KNOW, i KNOW - Technically I get it - Because I said you couldn't hold the views you were espousing "with anything approaching certainty" [not "with certainty", by the way] ... but still - are the propositions really "equally viable"?).

As for DD getting "Max" money ... there seems to be a consensus that he'll get something fairly close. And not because some maverick, "whacked-out" GM will have more dollars than sense. Or because I say so. It's because, taking into account his age, accomplishments, ceiling, comparables and intangibles, he actually has a near-consensus high market value.

Can you concede that?

It doesn't matter, as much, whether anyone can agree he's "elite" or not, right? The question is closer to whether or not he's the best player we can realistically expect to get with the money we are going to have.

You're still entitled (of course) to say that high-profile commentators and industry insiders are wrong about his value ... but it seems to me a species of cupidity to push the point too far, given the uncertainty ... And not the "pigs might fly" uncertainty, but the "He might be better than you (Yes you!) think" uncertainty.

JWalsh and I are close to tears here ...

And it's got nothing to do with Snooch ...

Can you not see that. laddie??