Everything Derozan

[mcHAPPY]

You didn't read the rest of my post. I didn't mean how from a technical standpoint, but rather from a salary-cap standpoint.

I'm talking in terms of needing to make salaries match. Who would you trade, that has both value and salary? Lowry is definitely an option, but that would severely weaken the PG spot. Carroll is another option, but his 3&D skillset is far more complimentary to any new #1 option than DeRozan (hence my claim is 'gutting the team').

That's why I keep arriving at DeRozan as the logical choice to either be dealt in trade for the new #1, or to be dealt (or let walk as a free agent) to free up cap space to sign the new #1.

Bobby Webster is good but I don't think even he can come up with the creative accounting necessary to find a #1 via trade or free agency with JV/DD getting max or near max without gutting rest of team.

That Knicks/Nuggets pick could also yield a future #1 and I'm not ruling out Bruno until 2018.

[planetmars]

so who do you trade then?

All depth? between every single player off the bench and capspace we couldnt affoprd a max player that would take a 1A spot.

Or do we trade a starter?

So Trade our best player in Lowry and go with Demar and a #1 option with unproven PGs.

Or Trade away JV and be left with no front court.


Resigning Demar and trading for that unknown #1 option is far and away the most unrealistic option available.

Forgot to include Carroll in that list, and then it goes back to the Carroll vs DD debate and which would be better with a #1 option (my vote would be for Carroll).

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I read all of your post.

We could acquire said player via trade. And in the event that signing DD is actually blocking you from signing a Durant you obviously S&T DD or let him walk and sign KD, it's not rocket science. But a trade could also be made WITH DD on the roster for said superstar.

Just don't see the point in trading him now. Do you guys already have a deal lined up for a superstar or something? If we strike out on KD there isn't one in FA this year. Might as well keep DD as a trade chip even if you don't like him, he could be used to match salary in a trade even.

I don't think DeRozan @ $20M+ per season is a very attractive trade chip. It's one thing for teams with cap space to target him, since it's just money, but making a trade work for a player making such a big contract is difficult to execute. How would the Raptors clear cap space to make a run at a free agent, considering they'd need to take significant salary back in any DeRozan trade?

For me, I'd rather trade DeRozan on an attractive salary in order to either get a good young player at a different position (ie: Favors - purely used for the purpose of an example) or to pick up a combination of assets (ie: good prospects and draft picks), rather than either of the two more likely outcomes: he walks for no return, or is signed to a $20M+ deal.

It comes down to team-building and asset management for me, having little to do with DeRozan himself at all.

[JWash]

I don't think DeRozan @ $20M+ per season is a very attractive trade chip. It's one thing for teams with cap space to target him, since it's just money, but making a trade work for a player making such a big contract is difficult to execute. How would the Raptors clear cap space to make a run at a free agent, considering they'd need to take significant salary back in any DeRozan trade?

For me, I'd rather trade DeRozan on an attractive salary in order to either get a good young player at a different position (ie: Favors - purely used for the purpose of an example) or to pick up a combination of assets (ie: good prospects and draft picks), rather than either of the two more likely outcomes: he walks for no return, or is signed to a $20M+ deal.

It comes down to team-building and asset management for me, having little to do with DeRozan himself at all.

But any team trading for DeRozan now would know that to retain him they need to pay that same $20M+, and in this case it isn't even a guarantee that he stays... so I'm not really seeing your point. No team is going to place high value on a rental player, and if they view him as a long-term piece then they would place value on DD at $20M+ per year.

And it has everything to do with DeRozan, because nobody is having this discussion about Valanciunas. I'm a huge supporter of both and think JV has more talent, however he also has not actually proven that he's a max player either unless you extrapolate his statistics and make assumptions, just saying.

[planetmars]

I don't think DeRozan @ $20M+ per season is a very attractive trade chip. It's one thing for teams with cap space to target him, since it's just money, but making a trade work for a player making such a big contract is difficult to execute. How would the Raptors clear cap space to make a run at a free agent, considering they'd need to take significant salary back in any DeRozan trade?

For me, I'd rather trade DeRozan on an attractive salary in order to either get a good young player at a different position (ie: Favors - purely used for the purpose of an example) or to pick up a combination of assets (ie: good prospects and draft picks), rather than either of the two more likely outcomes: he walks for no return, or is signed to a $20M+ deal.

It comes down to team-building and asset management for me, having little to do with DeRozan himself at all.

I can never count out Masai, but I think trading DD now is less and less likely. He should have been moved in July or at the draft as that's when a trade would have been more optimal. Him being used as a recruitment tool also swings the chances to less likely that he's moved.

I'm not sure what I'd be happier with.. losing DD for nothing or trying to find a trade partner for a $20M+/year contract. Probably the former at this point.

[Wild-ling#1]

First off, Dan's assertions of Demar being a sup average defender amongst his teammates on a bad defensive team are completely supported.

Why is lowry being brought into a demar debate?

What in the fuck does the allstar team and team usa have to do with him not being worth a max contract based on his defense-to which alot of discussion was based. If you are inferring that his Character makes people want to come to Toronto that is a whole lot of speculation. I could say that people want to play for the Raptors cause Mike Holmes is an awesome guy and lives near toronto.

The discussion here are revolving around some posters high view of a player, and those who point out differences in those incredibly high views. Criticisms are not Negativity. And no one has said anything about demar on a personal level that suggests an attack on character.

And why are you trying to comapare basketball discussion with an episode of the simpsons?

"For the record", as they say, I did not nearly suggest that Dan's views were "unsupported".

Demar's all-star and Team USA selections are public indicators of his overall market value (which includes defence).

DD and KL, together, form part of a quite highly regarded "back-court". Generally, it's our "front-court" that has been singled out as most in need of development/improvement or recruitment.

The Simpsons are a satirical comedy about the foibles of human nature. Most can see ourselves lampooned there from time-to-time. Maybe have a look. It's been quite popular.

"Yes" you can say that "People want to play for the Raptors cause Mike Holmes is an awesome guy and lives near toronto" (and imply that's as relevant as DD's league profile). ... Go ahead, if you like. Email Harden or KD.

But I say you are dodging my essential points. "Cherry picking" and "Spinning", if you will.

"To each his own", they say.

[3inthekeon]

Hey guys, the important thing is all this will be settled soon when the season starts (relatively soon). Casey and Demar are both coaching/playing for their Raptor lives. They have no more excuses. We gave DC all the defensive players he can handle, and we finally paired DD up with a complementary wing who is great at the things he isn't, and is fine with playing the 2nd/3rd/4th fiddle offensively. We also have defensive backup PG/SGs to further take the defensive load off DD, the perimeter defense has to be better this year, it just has to. I know it's fun to argue in circles, but maybe everyone should just lay out their predictions for DD's defense and offense this year and leave it at that until the games start. If some new info or a new article rolls in, by all means lets talk about it, but I think we've beaten the "DD's defense horse" to death, and then continued to bludgeon it until we couldn't distinguish it from the ground underneath.

To get things going, here's my prediction for DD this year:

A career best 105 DRtg
A career best 112 ORtg
A career best 35% from 3pt land, with the vast majority of 3's being shot from the corner where he's actually good.
A career high 3.5 3pt attempts per game
A career high .540 TS%
A career high .450 FG%
4.5 rebounds and 4 assists per game

It's a contract year with the best Raps squad DD has ever played with, so I'm expecting a career year. No reason to be anything but optimistic at this point. We'll have plenty of time to crucify DD during the season if he doesn't hit my lofty goals outlined here.

What's everyone else's prediction for DD using the stats I used?

Primer, you obviously used BBRef's ORTG/DRTG rather than the NBA site. They are much different. Can you (or anyone else) explain why?

BTW, I never make predictions, so I'll go with yours except for the 35% 3pt shooting. If he even gets to 32%, I'll be shocked.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

But any team trading for DeRozan now would know that to retain him they need to pay that same $20M+, and in this case it isn't even a guarantee that he stays... so I'm not really seeing your point. No team is going to place high value on a rental player, and if they view him as a long-term piece then they would place value on DD at $20M+ per year.

And it has everything to do with DeRozan, because nobody is having this discussion about Valanciunas. I'm a huge supporter of both and think JV has more talent, however he also has not actually proven that he's a max player either unless you extrapolate his statistics and make assumptions, just saying.

First, this isn't a Valanciunas thread.

Second, you're comparing different positions, rookie-scale VS non-rookie-scale, different "max" values, etc...

Third, the new #1 option is more than likely going to be a wing player, given how the league is going. Carroll would be a far superior complementary wing alongside the new #1 than DeRozan.

[planetmars]

But any team trading for DeRozan now would know that to retain him they need to pay that same $20M+, and in this case it isn't even a guarantee that he stays... so I'm not really seeing your point. No team is going to place high value on a rental player, and if they view him as a long-term piece then they would place value on DD on $20M+ per year.

And it has everything to do with DeRozan, because nobody is having this discussion about Valanciunas. I'm a huge supporter of both and think JV has more talent, however he also has not actually proven that he's a max player either unless you extrapolate his statistics and make assumptions, just saying.

Bigs take longer to develop, and they get paid more. A max deal for a potential 15/10 center is in my opinion a better deal than a guy scoring 20/4/4. It'll be easier to move a center in a trade than someone like DD, assuming both are paid in the $20M range.

[JWash]

First, this isn't a Valanciunas thread.

Second, you're comparing different positions, rookie-scale VS non-rookie-scale, different "max" values, etc...

Third, the new #1 option is more than likely going to be a wing player, given how the league is going. Carroll would be a far superior complementary wing alongside the new #1 than DeRozan.

I know that they're different max values and different positions. The point is the same.

And there's no guarantee the #1 option will be a wing player whatsoever. Hell we were just in the game for Aldridge who's a PF.

The #1 option could be any position. Obviously the guy everyone's focussed on right now is Durant. But in 2017 for example you have Blake Griffin and Westbrook among others available for example, neither of whom are wings.

[mcHAPPY]

I can never count out Masai, but I think trading DD now is less and less likely. He should have been moved in July or at the draft as that's when a trade would have been more optimal. Him being used as a recruitment tool also swings the chances to less likely that he's moved.

I'm not sure what I'd be happier with.. losing DD for nothing or trying to find a trade partner for a $20M+/year contract. Probably the former at this point.

Yes, I would be shocked if DD was traded this off season.

We will have to see how it all plays out but I'd also be shocked, and disappointed, if he was brought back next season at $20M or more per year.

[SkywalkerAC]

You didn't read the rest of my post. I didn't mean how from a technical standpoint, but rather from a salary-cap standpoint.

I'm talking in terms of needing to make salaries match. Who would you trade, that has both value and salary? Lowry is definitely an option, but that would severely weaken the PG spot. Carroll is another option, but his 3&D skillset is far more complimentary to any new #1 option than DeRozan (hence my claim is 'gutting the team').

That's why I keep arriving at DeRozan as the logical choice to either be dealt in trade for the new #1, or to be dealt (or let walk as a free agent) to free up cap space to sign the new #1.

It's easy enough to package Lowry up with other great filler and prospects - Lowry + Some combo of (JJ + Patterson +Ross) + Knicks' pick + whatever looks like a pretty tasty return even for someone like KD, were he to tell OKC to trade him or lose him. However, the better play is simply shedding some salary to sign another big gun in 2016, using DeMar and Jonas's reasonable cap holds to do so - that could be Kyle again.

It's not easy to fill Lowry's shoes, but if you have another star joining ranks Cory and Delon look more than capable. Add that Nando's hold is only 1.8 mill and can be signed for more afterwards, point guard shouldn't be the issue that you'd think.

[SkywalkerAC]

Yes, I would be shocked if DD was traded this off season.

We will have to see how it all plays out but I'd also be shocked, and disappointed, if he was brought back next season at $20M or more per year.

This is all pie-in-the-sky but presumably you wouldn't be disappointed if we came back with Cory/DeMar/Durant/Carroll/Jonas, even with DeMar at 20, would you?

[JWash]

Bigs take longer to develop, and they get paid more. A max deal for a potential 15/10 center is in my opinion a better deal than a guy scoring 20/4/4. It'll be easier to move a center in a trade than someone like DD, assuming both are paid in the $20M range.

Oh I definitely agree with you... In a vacuum I'd take Val on a max over DD on a max even if they were the same value (which they aren't, I know for pete's sake that JV's max is lower than DeMar's)... but the fact is he hasn't really earned a max contract or proven that he's a max player.

But let's just say hypothetically KD says he wants to sign with the Raps, but part of the reason is he wants to play with DD (which is far more likely than it being because of JV at this point because DD has way more cachet around the league.... that does not mean he's better... just has a better reputation). Then what do you do?

[Snooch]

But any team trading for DeRozan now would know that to retain him they need to pay that same $20M+, and in this case it isn't even a guarantee that he stays... so I'm not really seeing your point.

And it has everything to do with DeRozan, because nobody is having this discussion about Valanciunas. I'm a huge supporter of both and think JV has more talent, however he also has not actually proven that he's a max player either unless you extrapolate his statistics and make assumptions, just saying.

why are you bringing up JV?

Back to Demar, some teams may feel that he is the piece that is missing to propel them to the playoffs, then because they retain the right to pay him the most money, and they win with him, that they would be more willing to pay him he ludicrous upcoming salary.

Using UTAH for the example, they have alot of lower valued contracts, they could add Demar and not handicap themselves capwise like we would.

Looking at
12 million Lowry
15 million Carrol
16 million JV(estimation)
25 million Demar
6 Million Ppat

thats a 75 million dollar lineup in an estimated cap of 90, with apparent extensions to Ross, a top 10 draft pick, a #20ish draft pick, Biyombo, Bebe, Bruno, Powell, Cujo, Wright,