Everything Derozan

[Quirk]

DeMar DeRozan's participation in Team USA is great, and really need to be understood better.

Team USA can show how truly great DD could be on a championship calibre team.

What should not be missed though is that DeMar's role on Team USA is clearly to be at best the 5/6th player. Meaning that his usage and court time would 5th or 6th highest on the team at most.

Imagine if DeMar's agent told team USA that DeMar would only play if he was promised to be in the top 3 in court time and usage. What does Team USA say? I guess that would be the end of his tenor with the team

And further, Team USA does not have a salary cap, but the same applies, if they did, he would not be able to ask for anything more than what was justified by his production and role.

The same applies to Toronto, if DD truly loves the team, then he must want the team be competitive, and for that to be the case DD can not have more than 5th most minutes, 5th highest usage and 5th highest salary (still many millions of dollars).

if he is unwilling to accept a role and salary on the team that matches his productivity, then he is rejecting the team, not the other way around, so we wish him best of luck and move on.

[Axel]

Axel why'd you delete your post? Was about to respond to it -___-

DD and JV taking paycuts seems unlikely in a vacuum. I'm not saying it's a guarantee that they would, but I mean even if they get a combined 33M or so in the first year, DD is basically doubling his earnings per year while JV is quadrupling his, and both guys are getting a legitimate chance to win multiple titles.

I guess it really depends on what their main motivators are and how much that extra 6-7M per year would mean vs. legitimately contending for titles.

It didn't show up correctly on my phone (half merge with your post actually), so instead of taking the time to correct it, deleted it but then ran out the door before I could re-post.

If I were JV, I would be less willing to take a pay cut based on the relationship to date. When your coach makes public comments about you (somewhat regularly), and you are an afterthought in the offence, I would be telling to the team, I'll stay but pay me what I'm worth based on the market.

If I were DD, this is the one big UFA payday of my career. Hard to leave $ on the table unless I'm playing in a non-tax state.

Either way, Masai better have a better plan to acquire a star than hope for our own guys to sign for less and hope to sign a marquee player.

[Axel]

u are a million percent correct and i have reported posts in the past, but nothing came of that so i stooped...

If the mods had a $1 for every post that gets reported from this thread (from both sides of the argument), we'd all retire rich men.

[JWash]

It didn't show up correctly on my phone (half merge with your post actually), so instead of taking the time to correct it, deleted it but then ran out the door before I could re-post.

If I were JV, I would be less willing to take a pay cut based on the relationship to date. When your coach makes public comments about you (somewhat regularly), and you are an afterthought in the offence, I would be telling to the team, I'll stay but pay me what I'm worth based on the market.

If I were DD, this is the one big UFA payday of my career. Hard to leave $ on the table unless I'm playing in a non-tax state.

Either way, Masai better have a better plan to acquire a star than hope for our own guys to sign for less and hope to sign a marquee player.

I posted an alternative above.

[Snooch]

If the mods had a $1 for every post that gets reported from this thread (from both sides of the argument), we'd all retire rich men.

i would imagine

[mcHAPPY]

And yet you dismiss others with varying opinions as "ridiculous" and "church of Derozan" worshippers ...

Only because the District has been so frowned upon

lol

[mcHAPPY]

and a bloated payroll of over 100 million. that is a possibility sure, so is getting stuck by lighting while getting a bj from scarjo on a pile a money in the middle of the ocean. a completly unrealistic scenario.

I think all that is much more likely than getting KD to agree to be starting PF/4.



Then, as the rebuttal will surely come, asking DC to start as starting PF/4 is just turning a solid 3&D in to an overpowered and overpaid 4.

[DanH]

You're not sure I fully understand how the cap works, JWash?

I'm going to go ahead and spell this out then, using precise numbers rather than estimating like I'd done before.

Next summer:

Carroll 14.2
Lowry 12
CoJo 7.315
PP 6.05
Biyombo 2.9 (he may opt out but no guarantee there)
BeBe 1.9
Bruno 1.6
Wright 1.6
Powell 0.9
1st NYK 2.1
1st TOR 1.3

No roster spot holds (0.54M if we need it later).

That totals 51.9 M. Leaving 37.1 M projected cap space.

DeRozans cap hold is 15.05M. JV's is 11.65M. That means 26.7M cap hold for them. Leaves 10.4M in cap space for Durant. Need 25.1M. BB opting out makes it 13.3M. PP being dealt makes it 18.8M (19.3M but you need a roster slot hold of 0.54). CoJo being dealt makes it 25.6M, just enough. Of course, either of those draft picks coming in better means not enough cap room. Or Biyombo opting in (which is what I was assuming). Or DeMar making the all star game. Or the cap coming in a smidge low.

In any case, the point remains - only if Biyombo opts out can you get there, and even then it means losing your entire bench (no CoJo, no Ross, no JJ, no Scola, no Biyombo, and no PP). Essentially, to avoid that situation, you are placing all the control in the hands of Biyombo, luck (higher cap maybe?), DeRozan not making the all-star game, the Knicks final draft position - any number of things totally out of Ujiri's control.

[DanH]

I imagine pitching KD on starting at the 4 will be like pitching Aldridge on starting at C - a perfectly viable team building strategy and a quick ticket to not getting a sit-down at all.

[DanH]

Didn't this whole argument stem from whether or not we should keep DD though? I've always said that my preferred rout is hopefully retaining DD for ~20M this offseason (A few million short of the max). So we agree on this issue.

In my post I expressed my preference for keeping Ross and Patterson rather than DD.

And the conversation is largely about whether to keep DD if he asks for max, which he will have every opportunity to get paid. So as I outlined, even the best case 2017 scenario means hoping DD takes a pay cut to stay here. If he does, so be it. But planning the future in a way that hinges on the generosity of a player in contract negotiations is a poor strategy.

[JWash]

You're not sure I fully understand how the cap works, JWash?

DanH I copy-pasted my original post word for word and that was posted before and directed at someone else... Obviously I'm not going to tell the person who understands the cap the most on here, something like that. Give me a little credit please.

I'm going to go ahead and spell this out then, using precise numbers rather than estimating like I'd done before.

Next summer:

Carroll 14.2
Lowry 12
CoJo 7.315
PP 6.05
Biyombo 2.9 (he may opt out but no guarantee there)
BeBe 1.9
Bruno 1.6
Wright 1.6
Powell 0.9
1st NYK 2.1
1st TOR 1.3

No roster spot holds (0.54M if we need it later).

That totals 51.9 M. Leaving 37.1 M projected cap space.

DeRozans cap hold is 15.05M. JV's is 11.65M. That means 26.7M cap hold for them. Leaves 10.4M in cap space for Durant. Need 25.1M. BB opting out makes it 13.3M. PP being dealt makes it 18.8M (19.3M but you need a roster slot hold of 0.54). CoJo being dealt makes it 25.6M, just enough. Of course, either of those draft picks coming in better means not enough cap room. Or Biyombo opting in (which is what I was assuming). Or DeMar making the all star game. Or the cap coming in a smidge low.

In any case, the point remains - only if Biyombo opts out can you get there, and even then it means losing your entire bench (no CoJo, no Ross, no JJ, no Scola, no Biyombo, and no PP). Essentially, to avoid that situation, you are placing all the control in the hands of Biyombo, luck (higher cap maybe?), DeRozan not making the all-star game, the Knicks final draft position - any number of things totally out of Ujiri's control.

I was pretty sure my numbers weren't perfect anyway, but what you just posted to me indicated it IS possible minus keeping one of CoJo/2Pat. I think sacrificing depth to have a starting 5 that good is worth it. Some may disagree, but replacing bench players isn't impossible especially considering how well Masai drafts. Even if Biyombo opts in (which he wouldn't if he had a remotely good season) he could be traded.

I imagine pitching KD on starting at the 4 will be like pitching Aldridge on starting at C - a perfectly viable team building strategy and a quick ticket to not getting a sit-down at all.

I think you'd be pitching DeMarre at 4. Not KD. Which is something that the Raptors have already indicated we're going to see a lot anyway.

[Wild-ling#1]

Geezus, I think you guys actually enjoy this ... LOL

Not all of us.

[special1]

DeMar DeRozan's participation in Team USA is great, and really need to be understood better.

Team USA can show how truly great DD could be on a championship calibre team.

What should not be missed though is that DeMar's role on Team USA is clearly to be at best the 5/6th player. Meaning that his usage and court time would 5th or 6th highest on the team at most.

Imagine if DeMar's agent told team USA that DeMar would only play if he was promised to be in the top 3 in court time and usage. What does Team USA say? I guess that would be the end of his tenor with the team

And further, Team USA does not have a salary cap, but the same applies, if they did, he would not be able to ask for anything more than what was justified by his production and role.

The same applies to Toronto, if DD truly loves the team, then he must want the team be competitive, and for that to be the case DD can not have more than 5th most minutes, 5th highest usage and 5th highest salary (still many millions of dollars).

if he is unwilling to accept a role and salary on the team that matches his productivity, then he is rejecting the team, not the other way around, so we wish him best of luck and move on.

Sorry but this post is bordering on silly.

Why the 5th highest usage?
Why the 5th highest minutes?
Why the 5th highest salary?

Because you say so??

Obviously, the organization does not agree with your opinion because Demar currently has the highest usage and minutes on the team! As a result he'll likely have the highest salary as well.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JWash]

In my post I expressed my preference for keeping Ross and Patterson rather than DD.

And the conversation is largely about whether to keep DD if he asks for max, which he will have every opportunity to get paid. So as I outlined, even the best case 2017 scenario means hoping DD takes a pay cut to stay here. If he does, so be it. But planning the future in a way that hinges on the generosity of a player in contract negotiations is a poor strategy.

Yeah I disagree with you on the first part, but the fact that you agree DD is worth retaining at ~20M starting salary agrees with my notion that it would not be smart at all to trade him for a mid 1st round pick. I'm sure you're going to deny that because at this point a line in the sand has been drawn but that's fine.

[DanH]

DanH I copy-pasted my original post word for word and that was posted before and directed at someone else... Obviously I'm not going to tell the person who understands the cap the most on here, something like that. Give me a little credit please.

My bad, I think you updated your formatting since I started my reply.

I was pretty sure my numbers weren't perfect anyway, but what you just posted to me indicated it IS possible minus keeping one of CoJo/2Pat. I think sacrificing depth to have a starting 5 that good is worth it. Some may disagree, but replacing bench players isn't impossible especially considering how well Masai drafts. Even if Biyombo opts in (which he wouldn't if he had a remotely good season) he could be traded.

But thats the whole point! To even pitch Durant you have to lose your entire bench AND get lucky with being able to trade all those pieces without taking back ANY salary AND get lucky with draft pick locations and bonuses and cap levels. As compared to your earlier assertion that it would be easy to project keeping a key bench piece and signing Durant. It is not. Not even close.

I think you'd be pitching DeMarre at 4. Not KD. Which is something that the Raptors have already indicated we're going to see a lot anyway.

At this point you are pitching KD with playing beside a 3 playing at the 4 (a 3 who is much, much smaller than KD himself), and relying on a bench completely filled with recent or current draft picks (most of whom will have negligible NBA experience).

It is simply not a viable strategy.