Everything Derozan

[DanH]

Yeah I disagree with you on the first part, but the fact that you agree DD is worth retaining at ~20M starting salary agrees with my notion that it would not be smart at all to trade him for a mid 1st round pick. I'm sure you're going to deny that because at this point a line in the sand has been drawn but that's fine.

Did I say that he was worth retaining at 20M? He might be, but I don't think I've said that. And I certainly don't feel strongly that it would be the right move.

All I said was that it would be possible to retain future flexibility in the UNLIKELY event that DeRozan agrees to a paycut of that magnitude.

I personally would rather trade DD for a two year junk contract (or ideally a good player, who knows what DD's value is at this point though) and a decent pick and aim for 2017 while keeping our bench intact.

[DanH]

Sorry but this post is bordering on silly.

Why the 5th highest usage?
Why the 5th highest minutes?
Why the 5th highest salary?

Because you say so??

Obviously, the organization does not agree with your opinion because Demar currently has the highest usage and minutes on the team! As a result he'll likely have the highest salary as well.




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I disagree with your argument here, but I do want to point out a small area where I do agree with you.

DeMar wouldn't need to have a reduced usage, minutes AND salary. In my mind, his ideal use is as a sixth man, running the offence off the bench - would have a strength and skill advantage there, perhaps enough to have him take better shots, and would not have to carry any sort of real defensive load. And his improved playmaking skills could blossom picking apart bench defences.

But that does mean a decrease in minutes to a bit under 30, and certainly a much smaller salary than he currently projects to. His usage though, could stay very high.

[JWash]

My bad, I think you updated your formatting since I started my reply.

Fair enough I forgot to put it in quotations initially.

But thats the whole point! To even pitch Durant you have to lose your entire bench AND get lucky with being able to trade all those pieces without taking back ANY salary AND get lucky with draft pick locations and bonuses and cap levels. As compared to your earlier assertion that it would be easy to project keeping a key bench piece and signing Durant. It is not. Not even close.

I don't see how it would be difficult to trade those pieces without taking back salary. Some teams like Philly are REALLY going to struggle to hit the salary floor with the cap rising so much. They could also potentially included in a sign and trade deal... we did OKC a favor this year this year so maybe they do us one too.

I consider DD to be a much less replaceable talent than a CoJo or Patrick Patterson. So I'd take the elite starting lineup and work on building a bench after. Delon Wright, Bruno Caboclo and the Knicks 2016 1st round pick would be a good start anyway. Or are we just assuming all these guys are going to bust?

I mean Atlanta's bench last year for example was mostly young players and cheap guys and they didn't do too badly, with a much worse starting lineup than the one I'm suggesting. Thabo and Mike Scott for dirt cheap, Schroeder and Bazemore as young prospects and Brand basically making the minimum.

We could also upgrade in coming years using exceptions and taking on ring-chasers.

At this point you are pitching KD with playing beside a 3 playing at the 4 (a 3 who is much, much smaller than KD himself), and relying on a bench completely filled with recent or current draft picks (most of whom will have negligible NBA experience).

It is simply not a viable strategy.

Actually it's a very viable strategy. Very few NBA teams have two legit low post scorers (in fact the only one I can think of off hand is Memphis). This would be a great "small ball" lineup and JV would guard whoever the most dominant low post force on the other team is. I feel like it would be more of a problem for other teams trying to guard that lineup than us defending.

[Wild-ling#1]

and a bloated payroll of over 100 million. that is a possibility sure, so is getting stuck by lighting while getting a bj from scarjo on a pile a money in the middle of the ocean. a completly unrealistic scenario.

And I'm very interested in, at least, examining these sorts of scenarios ... But the analysis is complex (with all the cap "holds", "exceptions", wondering where the cap will be and who will take what (in varying scenarios and for one year ... five?).

Responding with blanket denials while referencing "bj's" during lightning storms is comparatively easy. Too easy, no?

[raptors999]

http://en.yibada.com/articles/52207/...s-to-stand.htm

#TorontoFansDelusuonal #FatChicksArentCurvyTheyAreFat #GameAndAHalfBack #SoDrunkSoSunny

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[Wild-ling#1]

KD's contract would start at approximately 25M for the record, not 28. Also I'm not sure you fully understand how the cap works....

Let's say the Raptors meet KD and he eventually says he wants to play for the team. At that point I think the logical move would first be to renounce rights to any non-core free agents (excluding draft picks) leaving us with:

Kyle Lowry: $12,000,000
DeRozan cap hold: $14,250,000 ...


And we'd still have some exceptions and minimums to use to fill out the roster.

I'm very interested in these sceanrios, and have been trying to get my head around it, too. But it's awfully complicated.

So thanks

[raptors999]

I'm very interested in these sceanrios, and have been trying to get my head around it, too. But it's awfully complicated.

So thanks

No Problem 😀 #IContributedNothing

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[Chr1s1anL]

Its funny the guys saying "The only way we can get a Star player is by trading DD." are the same guys at beginning of the off season saying "The only way Masai can make this team better is by trading DD"

I know you guys really want DD gone bad but, how many more times do you guys need Masai to remind you how much he values DD?

DD end of press conference "We need some more vets"

How does Masai fill his starting 3/4 spots. Throws money at a 29 year old 3D player and than sign a 35 year old PF.

[raptors999]

Its funny the guys saying "The only way we can get a Star player is by trading DD." are the same guys at beginning of the off season saying "The only way Masai can make this team better is by trading DD"

I know you guys really want DD gone bad but, how many more times do you guys need Masai to remind you how much he values DD?

DD end of press conference "We need some more vets"

How does Masai fill his starting 3/4 spots. Throws money at a 29 year old 3D player and than sign a 35 year old PF.

Progression means a 41 year old Center #TimDuncan2016

[Chr1s1anL]

Progression means a 41 year old Center #TimDuncan2016

Depends on what DD/Masai think is best for the team.

[DanH]

Fair enough I forgot to put it in quotations initially.





I don't see how it would be difficult to trade those pieces without taking back salary. Some teams like Philly are REALLY going to struggle to hit the salary floor with the cap rising so much. They could also potentially included in a sign and trade deal... we did OKC a favor this year this year so maybe they do us one too.

I consider DD to be a much less replaceable talent than a CoJo or Patrick Patterson. So I'd take the elite starting lineup and work on building a bench after. Delon Wright, Bruno Caboclo and the Knicks 2016 1st round pick would be a good start anyway. Or are we just assuming all these guys are going to bust?

I mean Atlanta's bench last year for example was mostly young players and cheap guys and they didn't do too badly, with a much worse starting lineup than the one I'm suggesting. Thabo and Mike Scott for dirt cheap, Schroeder and Bazemore as young prospects and Brand basically making the minimum.

We could also upgrade in coming years using exceptions and taking on ring-chasers.



Actually it's a very viable strategy. Very few NBA teams have two legit low post scorers (in fact the only one I can think of off hand is Memphis). This would be a great "small ball" lineup and JV would guard whoever the most dominant low post force on the other team is. I feel like it would be more of a problem for other teams trying to guard that lineup than us defending.

That Atlanta point is exactly my point. It is a perfectly viable team building approach - the end result could be very good. But good luck selling a top free agent on that. Telling a prospective signee that the bench will figure itself out, that you are relying on unproven talent, and that you don't technically have a real PF on the team is just not going to fly. Remember, this pitch doesn't just have to be good enough for Durant to sign here (and I think it fails even that criterion) - it has to beat out 20 different teams' pitches. Frankly, if I was Durant, and that was the pitch over the phone, I don't know that I give you a sit down.

And the best part of this? If you trade guys ahead of time to clear cap space, you are gutting your roster for a chance at Durant. So in the extremely likely event that he doesn't choose us, we've killed our depth for nothing. And if you wait to clear cap space until after, welcome to getting bent over by every team in the league - everyone knows you are desperate to move salary, so every deal moved will have a couple picks or prospects attached to it. So you can say goodbye to the bench depth you are hoping to have from our prospect base too.

[Wild-ling#1]

In my post I expressed my preference for keeping Ross and Patterson rather than DD.

And the conversation is largely about whether to keep DD if he asks for max, which he will have every opportunity to get paid. So as I outlined, even the best case 2017 scenario means hoping DD takes a pay cut to stay here. If he does, so be it. But planning the future in a way that hinges on the generosity of a player in contract negotiations is a poor strategy.

I think it's great that people are really trying to do some hard analysis. Seriously, thanks.

But it's not unheard of for players to take something of a "hair-cut", for a real shot at a title. I would examine every possibiiity.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptor..._pays_off.html

Demar:

Me? I’m just loyal, man. The fans treated me great since Day 1 when I got here, honestly. I felt like I never wanted to walk away without giving something the city has wanted since I got here." .... "It could be easy to walk away, it could be easy to be like, ‘nah, I don’t want to re-sign here, I want to go somewhere else because another team likes me.’ But sometimes, the grass ain’t always greener on the other side.

And:

You know some guys say they don’t pay any attention to what negative is being said of this, that? I do,” he said in a wide-ranging interview. “I know it’s there.
“I’m not one of those naïve players who don’t know. I read a lot of stuff just to see. I use it as motivation in many ways. From a team aspect to an individual aspect … I think that helps me a lot.

”
So take it any way you want. You can use it to justify accelerated criticism. Or go the other way. I can certainly appreciate a middle ground. But I have a sense that JV is a pretty cool and smart guy, too. Anyway, these guys are kinda' growing up together ... before our eyes. Here in "the 6". . And, it seems, there are a lot worse places to be than a part of DeMar DeRozan's inner circle ... his extended family

But I've always seen "loyalty" as a two-way street. You gotta give it to get it. And remember: DD is listening, it seems

[special1]

I disagree with your argument here, but I do want to point out a small area where I do agree with you.

DeMar wouldn't need to have a reduced usage, minutes AND salary. In my mind, his ideal use is as a sixth man, running the offence off the bench - would have a strength and skill advantage there, perhaps enough to have him take better shots, and would not have to carry any sort of real defensive load. And his improved playmaking skills could blossom picking apart bench defences.

But that does mean a decrease in minutes to a bit under 30, and certainly a much smaller salary than he currently projects to. His usage though, could stay very high.

In your mind indeed.

Like I said, the organization has a different opinion of Demar than you do. He will most likely continue to be the team leader in minutes and usage as well. I don't think Demar will be coming off the bench anytime soon (as much as that would be ideal for YOU).

This team wants/needs Demar out on the floor as much as possible.....I'll use the past few years of evidence in which Demar led the team in MPG and USG.

Also, we should probably get a capable SG (Ross? lol) before even mentioning Demar coming off the bench.








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[JWash]

That Atlanta point is exactly my point. It is a perfectly viable team building approach - the end result could be very good. But good luck selling a top free agent on that. Telling a prospective signee that the bench will figure itself out, that you are relying on unproven talent, and that you don't technically have a real PF on the team is just not going to fly. Remember, this pitch doesn't just have to be good enough for Durant to sign here (and I think it fails even that criterion) - it has to beat out 20 different teams' pitches. Frankly, if I was Durant, and that was the pitch over the phone, I don't know that I give you a sit down.

And the best part of this? If you trade guys ahead of time to clear cap space, you are gutting your roster for a chance at Durant. So in the extremely likely event that he doesn't choose us, we've killed our depth for nothing. And if you wait to clear cap space until after, welcome to getting bent over by every team in the league - everyone knows you are desperate to move salary, so every deal moved will have a couple picks or prospects attached to it. So you can say goodbye to the bench depth you are hoping to have from our prospect base too.

Yeah I really disagree lol, I think if Durant wasn't interested in that pitch then we wouldn't be getting him anyway. I'm not sure how you pitch to him, "Hey we're trading away our 1st/2nd best player for a draft pick to free up space for you, and you're going to be starting next to former Slam Dunk Champion, Terrence Ross".

[DanH]

I would never argue that DD would WANT to leave. I think if we offer the max he stays.

My point is, if we are hoping to keep him for 20M and someone else offers 25M... Loyalty only goes so far, and as you say, it is a two way street - meaning if we don't offer what the rest of the league (or at least one other team) thinks he's worth, are we showing loyalty?

Hey, if DeMar is staying here, I'd sure be happier with 20M than 25M. But I don't see him settling for that when a) the cap impacts are a year out - it's not like he'd be taking less so we can grab Durant - and b) there are likely to be many offers much closer to the max out there.