Everything Derozan

[Snooch]

I'd like to see your list of 100 players better than Demar. Explain your reasoning if possible. Let us discuss your list.

PG
SG or wing
SF or wing
PF or big
C or big

Also, you said that there were 4 current players on the Raptors that are "better" than Demar and deserves higher usage, minutes and salary. Can you explain who these 4 players are and why you think they deserve higher usage, salary and minutes?

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not to interject, but Lowry is one player. HE should have more usage that Demar IMO as he has proven to be more effective.

If we are talking last season, Lou was more efficient than Demar as well with a decently high usage. He deserved to be higher if strictly talking statistical productivity net plus minus.

JJ was an offensive force in regards to efficiency and JV was fantastic as well. If we are strictly talkkng productivity, then those are 4 guys right there that should have had higher usage. Now Im not saying that is Lou and JJ had a usage of 29% we would have had a better team, but they should have had more and DD less.

And now I wait for the inevitable responses of "Those guys produced well because of Demar drawing all the attention", "They would be terrible if they were first option" and "just a hater"

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

not to interject, but Lowry is one player. HE should have more usage that Demar IMO as he has proven to be more effective.

If we are talking last season, Lou was more efficient than Demar as well with a decently high usage. He deserved to be higher if strictly talking statistical productivity net plus minus.

JJ was an offensive force in regards to efficiency and JV was fantastic as well. If we are strictly talkkng productivity, then those are 4 guys right there that should have had higher usage. Now Im not saying that is Lou and JJ had a usage of 29% we would have had a better team, but they should have had more and DD less.

And now I wait for the inevitable responses of "Those guys produced well because of Demar drawing all the attention", "They would be terrible if they were first option" and "just a hater"

I think you slightly missed the point.

The discussion isn't about players that should have higher usage (although I think we likely used Lou more than we should have - especially to close out quarters). The point Quirk made was that there are 4 players that should have higher usage, minutes and salary THAN Demar.

Lou and JJ mostly played against other bench players btw. . What do you think would happen if Demar played mostly against bench players.... Might his numbers look much better?


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[Snooch]

I think you slightly missed the point.

The discussion isn't about players that should have higher usage (although I think we likely used Lou more than we should have - especially to close out quarters). The point Quirk made was that there are 4 players that should have higher usage, minutes and salary THAN Demar.

Lou and JJ mostly played against other bench players btw. . What do you think would happen if Demar played mostly against bench players.... Might his numbers look much better?


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No I did get that, and as much as I hate Demar I have to unfortunately disagree.

I think that, and I may be wrong, but it was being implied that Demar should be a 5th usage guy, but we cannot make that happen.

Personally I think he should be a 3rd on this current team,

Lowry should be a 1a...JV a 1b...and then possibly, depending on ability, I think you see Carroll getting close to Demar as Carrol would benefit greatly off of the Lowry JV two man game

[mcHAPPY]

I think you slightly missed the point.

The discussion isn't about players that should have higher usage (although I think we likely used Lou more than we should have - especially to close out quarters). The point Quirk made was that there are 4 players that should have higher usage, minutes and salary THAN Demar.

Lou and JJ mostly played against other bench players btw. . What do you think would happen if Demar played mostly against bench players.... Might his numbers look much better?


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If DeRozan played against bench players he would be universally loved as a 6th man of the year candidate, playing in a role that best suits his abilities, and hopefully paid in such a manner that reflects his role as 6th man.

Sadly it is his starting and force fed shots, playing in a role that everyone agrees he should not be (1st scoring option), and likely to be looking for max or near max money that causes so much debate and conflict of opinions.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

If DeRozan played against bench players he would be universally loved as a 6th man of the year candidate, playing in a role that best suits his abilities, and hopefully paid in such a manner that reflects his role as 6th man.

Sadly it is his starting and force fed shots, playing in a role that everyone agrees he should not be (1st scoring option), and likely to be looking for max or near max money that causes so much debate and conflict of opinions.

I've argued for years that DeRozan would be a fantastic Ginobli-esque 6th man, who comes off the bench but typically winds up in the top 2-4 of total minutes played.

Let Lowry be ball-dominant with the first unit, playing to his strength of being able to create off the dribble. Partner that with an inside-out game featuring JV and several good 3pt shooters (ie: Patterson, Carroll, Ross and Lowry), which would be well balanced offensively, with good ball movement (only one ball stopper). Defensively, a healthy Lowry and two good wing defenders, playing in a system that allows JV to stay home as a defensive anchor (ie: don't make him chase guys around the perimeter), would be pretty solid.

That would allow DeRozan to be the first off the bench, where he could become the dominant ball-handler, abusing 2nd string defenders with his ISO-play and post-ups (he could even be asked to play the role of facilitator more, alongside Joseph in the back court). He would set the tone for the 2nd unit offensively, where his defense wouldn't be a concern (or require much effort, keeping him fresh for the offensive end). Just like with Manu, he'd wind up playing lots of minutes with the 1st unit especially down the stretch in the 2nd and 4th quarters (could replace any of JV, Patterson, Carroll or Ross, depending on matchups and style of play they want to go with), and still play among the most minutes overall (possibly even 2nd most, behind Carroll, given that Lowry now has Joseph to keep him fresh).

[Quirk]

I'd like to see your list of 100 players better than Demar. Explain your reasoning if possible. Let us discuss your list.

I'm a simpleton, any regular rotation player with a WP48 150% or so better than DD is better than DD in my book, I'm looking forward to the more sophisticated analysis from DanH..

If you want to play "is this player better than DD," boxscoregeeks.com has a nice comparison tool.

I, for one, do not need to make a list to believe a player with a 0.073WP48 is not in the top 100, given that .100 is the *average.*

If you have a different point of view that can be statistically argued, would love to know it, if you just have an unsubstantiated opinion, see my bingo card from earlier in this thread and have fun!

[Quirk]

who comes off the bench but typically winds up in the top 2-4 of total minutes played.

Top 3-6 (averaging around 5), with a salary to match, and we've got a deal.

[Mr.Z]

I'm a simpleton, any regular rotation player with a WP48 150% or so better than DD is better than DD in my book, I'm looking forward to the more sophisticated analysis from DanH..

If you want to play "is this player better than DD," boxscoregeeks.com has a nice comparison tool.

I, for one, do not need to make a list to believe a player with a 0.073WP48 is not in the top 100, given that .100 is the *average.*

If you have a different point of view that can be statistically argued, would love to know it, if you just have an unsubstantiated opinion, see my bingo card from earlier in this thread and have fun!

Yeah.... because WP48 is definitely the be-all-end-all of player ranking.

[LJ2]

A lot of how DeMar plays this season is riding on Lowry's health and if he can regain his all-star form. If Lowry dominates then DD will be just fine playing off him. Put Ross and DC next to those guys to hit open shots and the offence will do just fine.

If Lowry struggles then DD and the rest of the team struggles as well.

[JWash]

I think DD would gladly come off the bench for a proven SG.

But GL calling him in and asking him to come off the bench for Ross.

[LJ2]

I think DD would gladly come off the bench for a proven SG.

But GL calling him in and asking him to come off the bench for Ross.

Really? Keep in mind this guy thinks he is unstoppable on offence. Why would he be happy about coming off the bench when in his mind he is one of the top SG's in the league?

[JWash]

Logically I don't see how DD coming off the bench on this current team makes sense.

We're not OKC where we have two dominant scorers like a KD and Westbrook in the starting unit, or even the Spurs with Tony Parker and Duncan. For a lesser example you could even look at the 2010 Hawks with Crawford coming off the bench because they had Joe Johnson.

Typically a top 3 player on the team will come off the bench under a few circumstances:
1.) There is a superior player at the same position (e.g. Jamal Crawford under JJ)
2.) His scoring creates a redundancy with the starting unit (e.g. James Harden in OKC)
3.) He has inadequate size to defend his position (e.g. Jason Terry in Dallas)

[JWash]

Really? Keep in mind this guy thinks he is unstoppable on offence. Why would he be happy about coming off the bench when in his mind he is one of the top SG's in the league?

Iguodala is extremely confident in his skills and had the same role DeRozan has now in Philly (and Denver) prior to going to GS. He also had ASG appearances and Team USA experience and was willing to do it for Klay so...

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I think DD would gladly come off the bench for a proven SG.

But GL calling him in and asking him to come off the bench for Ross.

Creating the 'best' lineup is about more than simply choosing your 5 best players. As in my previous post, just ask Ginobli. A superior 3pt shooter, who also happens to be a better perimeter defender, would be a better fit for a Lowry-centric starting unit. Lowry would be option #1, Valanciunas would be option #2a, with the other 3 being co-option #2b.

DeRozan's inefficiencies should be mitigated playing more of his minutes against the opposition's 2nd unit, plus he'd still likely wind up playing the 2nd most minutes overall. It would allow the team to set a more defensive tone from the start. It would also lead to better ball movement offensively, to get Lowry and Valanciunas going early, while also getting the ball into the hands of the outside shooters (Patterson, Carroll and Ross) more. Having two ball-dominant players isn't really the ideal way to get everybody going at the start of a game, so this approach would help alleviate that problem and avoid my-turn-your-turn ISOs.

I don't think there's any likelihood of this happening, but I do think it could be good for both the team and DeRozan. It's worked well for the last decade for the Spurs and Ginobli, so it's not like there isn't precedent already.

[Apollo]

Iguodala is extremely confident in his skills and had the same role DeRozan has now in Philly (and Denver) prior to going to GS. He also had ASG appearances and Team USA experience and was willing to do it for Klay so...

He had to grow in maturity to take that on considering what kind of position he played on a franchise prior. DeRozan would need two guys on the wing clearly more talented than him for this to work. If the Raptors have that then DD is trade bait.