Everything Derozan

[Wild-ling#1]

Katman posted a link to Bobby Marks' analysis of the issues at the beginning of his "Looking Ahead: 2016 Agency" thread: http://hoopshype.com/2015/07/19/the-...ee-agency-2016

Marks argues that the free agent crop of 2016 (including DeMar) is thin. But teams anxious to get to the salary "floor" of about $81M, teams might over-pay 2016 free agents, on multi-year deals, and tie up money that could be used (when the cap goes up again) in 2017 - when a superior group is available ... including:

Stephen Curry, Chris Paul (PO), Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Blake Griffin (PO), Hayward (PO), Serge Ibaka, Rudy Gay (PO), Paul Millsap (PO) and Monroe (PO) just to name a few.

It's good to understand the variables. But it does still seem to come down to talent assessment. Some give full credit to DD for being able to play big minutes, create his own shots, drive the lane, get to the line ... and defend, some pundits insist, "quite well".

Some hope that not guarding 3's, better over-all team defence and depth, JV's continuing development, coaching changes (etc.) will help DeMar take another "step".

Some think, essentially, that "what you see is what you get" ... and there are clearly holes.

W should have a lot more info by the next trade deadline. And I refuse to bet against DeMar (or Masai). In fact, I'm pulling for them.

[JWash]

Creating the 'best' lineup is about more than simply choosing your 5 best players. As in my previous post, just ask Ginobli. A superior 3pt shooter, who also happens to be a better perimeter defender, would be a better fit for a Lowry-centric starting unit. Lowry would be option #1, Valanciunas would be option #2a, with the other 3 being co-option #2b.

DeRozan's inefficiencies should be mitigated playing more of his minutes against the opposition's 2nd unit, plus he'd still likely wind up playing the 2nd most minutes overall. It would allow the team to set a more defensive tone from the start. It would also lead to better ball movement offensively, to get Lowry and Valanciunas going early, while also getting the ball into the hands of the outside shooters (Patterson, Carroll and Ross) more. Having two ball-dominant players isn't really the ideal way to get everybody going at the start of a game, so this approach would help alleviate that problem and avoid my-turn-your-turn ISOs.

I don't think there's any likelihood of this happening, but I do think it could be good for both the team and DeRozan. It's worked well for the last decade for the Spurs and Ginobli, so it's not like there isn't precedent already.

Again when Duncan and Parker are on the team perhaps we can talk.

[Snooch]

He had to grow in maturity to take that on considering what kind of position he played on a franchise prior. DeRozan would need two guys on the wing clearly more talented than him for this to work. If the Raptors have that then DD is trade bait.

Lowry is more talented, And in regards to production carroll is superior, because the 2 or 3 things carrol does well FAR exceeds demarss top 2 or 3 traits.

[psrs1]

I've argued for years that DeRozan would be a fantastic Ginobli-esque 6th man, who comes off the bench but typically winds up in the top 2-4 of total minutes played.

Let Lowry be ball-dominant with the first unit, playing to his strength of being able to create off the dribble. Partner that with an inside-out game featuring JV and several good 3pt shooters (ie: Patterson, Carroll, Ross and Lowry), which would be well balanced offensively, with good ball movement (only one ball stopper). Defensively, a healthy Lowry and two good wing defenders, playing in a system that allows JV to stay home as a defensive anchor (ie: don't make him chase guys around the perimeter), would be pretty solid.

That would allow DeRozan to be the first off the bench, where he could become the dominant ball-handler, abusing 2nd string defenders with his ISO-play and post-ups (he could even be asked to play the role of facilitator more, alongside Joseph in the back court). He would set the tone for the 2nd unit offensively, where his defense wouldn't be a concern (or require much effort, keeping him fresh for the offensive end). Just like with Manu, he'd wind up playing lots of minutes with the 1st unit especially down the stretch in the 2nd and 4th quarters (could replace any of JV, Patterson, Carroll or Ross, depending on matchups and style of play they want to go with), and still play among the most minutes overall (possibly even 2nd most, behind Carroll, given that Lowry now has Joseph to keep him fresh).

Good thinking...are you available to take over for DC? I know that with DC this will NEVER happen. DD gets the superstar treatment by the coach.

[psrs1]

I think DD would gladly come off the bench for a proven SG.

But GL calling him in and asking him to come off the bench for Ross.

I doubt DD would ever be asked to come off the bench.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Again when Duncan and Parker are on the team perhaps we can talk.

Lowry has shown to be at his best when he can be unleashed, whereas he seems a bit neutered when playing alongside another ball-dominant player, be it Gay or DeRozan.

You also didn't acknowledge the offensive game plan I originally put forth, where they could play an inside-out game with Valanciunas and 4 solid 3-pt shooters. Valanciunas has proven to be a reliable and efficient scorer down low, who has been criminally under-utilized, and still has significant room for improvement. Surrounding him with 4 good 3pt shooters would be the perfect compliment, and a great way to allow him to develop into a good facilitator out of the post. He's obviously not near Duncan's level, but he's been extremely efficient and effective as a post scorer in limited touches, and it's really the combination of the Lowry-penetration and inside-out play that would be effective in DeRozan's absence.

It's also as much about the fact that DeRozan's inefficient scoring, primarily off ISO plays, would be far more effective in the second unit. Not getting his teammates overly involved wouldn't be as detrimental, since the backups are more role players who don't need to find their offensive rhythm. Facing 2nd unit defenders should also allow him to increase his efficiency numbers, while likely getting to the line even more.

Finally, it's not like I'm selling DeRozan short or hating on him, as I also mentioned that I would expect him to wind up playing potentially the 2nd most minutes on the team. Carroll should get the most, given his versatility, defense and 3pt shooting (with only JJ behind him). Lowry should see his minutes lowered slightly, due to the addition of Joseph, in order to keep him fresh throughout the season. JV should see his minutes increase, but likely not enough to overtake DeRozan. Patterson and Ross would both likely be in that third tier for minutes, along with Lowry, Joseph and JV. Scola, JJ and Biyombo would all see much lower backup minutes, as DC goes with a primary 7-man rotation.

[Wild-ling#1]

Lowry has shown to be at his best when he can be unleashed, whereas he seems a bit neutered when playing alongside another ball-dominant player, be it Gay or DeRozan.

You also didn't acknowledge the offensive game plan I originally put forth. ...

I read and re-read your plan. Interesting.

[LJ2]

Lowry has shown to be at his best when he can be unleashed, whereas he seems a bit neutered when playing alongside another ball-dominant player, be it Gay or DeRozan.

You also didn't acknowledge the offensive game plan I originally put forth, where they could play an inside-out game with Valanciunas and 4 solid 3-pt shooters. Valanciunas has proven to be a reliable and efficient scorer down low, who has been criminally under-utilized, and still has significant room for improvement. Surrounding him with 4 good 3pt shooters would be the perfect compliment, and a great way to allow him to develop into a good facilitator out of the post. He's obviously not near Duncan's level, but he's been extremely efficient and effective as a post scorer in limited touches, and it's really the combination of the Lowry-penetration and inside-out play that would be effective in DeRozan's absence.

It's also as much about the fact that DeRozan's inefficient scoring, primarily off ISO plays, would be far more effective in the second unit. Not getting his teammates overly involved wouldn't be as detrimental, since the backups are more role players who don't need to find their offensive rhythm. Facing 2nd unit defenders should also allow him to increase his efficiency numbers, while likely getting to the line even more.

Finally, it's not like I'm selling DeRozan short or hating on him, as I also mentioned that I would expect him to wind up playing potentially the 2nd most minutes on the team. Carroll should get the most, given his versatility, defense and 3pt shooting (with only JJ behind him). Lowry should see his minutes lowered slightly, due to the addition of Joseph, in order to keep him fresh throughout the season. JV should see his minutes increase, but likely not enough to overtake DeRozan. Patterson and Ross would both likely be in that third tier for minutes, along with Lowry, Joseph and JV. Scola, JJ and Biyombo would all see much lower backup minutes, as DC goes with a primary 7-man rotation.

For his health, and longevity of career I hope he can learn to play alongside another ball dominant player whether it's DD or someone else. He went all out when DD went down last season and what was it 19 or 20 games and he broke down? He needs to rely on his team mates more whether it's JV in the post or pick n' roll, or Ross and DC shooting 3's. The team will be much better if he doesn't feel the need to carry the team day in day out.

[JWash]

Lowry has shown to be at his best when he can be unleashed, whereas he seems a bit neutered when playing alongside another ball-dominant player, be it Gay or DeRozan.

You also didn't acknowledge the offensive game plan I originally put forth, where they could play an inside-out game with Valanciunas and 4 solid 3-pt shooters. Valanciunas has proven to be a reliable and efficient scorer down low, who has been criminally under-utilized, and still has significant room for improvement. Surrounding him with 4 good 3pt shooters would be the perfect compliment, and a great way to allow him to develop into a good facilitator out of the post. He's obviously not near Duncan's level, but he's been extremely efficient and effective as a post scorer in limited touches, and it's really the combination of the Lowry-penetration and inside-out play that would be effective in DeRozan's absence.

It's also as much about the fact that DeRozan's inefficient scoring, primarily off ISO plays, would be far more effective in the second unit. Not getting his teammates overly involved wouldn't be as detrimental, since the backups are more role players who don't need to find their offensive rhythm. Facing 2nd unit defenders should also allow him to increase his efficiency numbers, while likely getting to the line even more.

Finally, it's not like I'm selling DeRozan short or hating on him, as I also mentioned that I would expect him to wind up playing potentially the 2nd most minutes on the team. Carroll should get the most, given his versatility, defense and 3pt shooting (with only JJ behind him). Lowry should see his minutes lowered slightly, due to the addition of Joseph, in order to keep him fresh throughout the season. JV should see his minutes increase, but likely not enough to overtake DeRozan. Patterson and Ross would both likely be in that third tier for minutes, along with Lowry, Joseph and JV. Scola, JJ and Biyombo would all see much lower backup minutes, as DC goes with a primary 7-man rotation.

I'm not saying you're hating on DeRozan, I just disagree with the tactic entirely. Because you'd be putting a player who is not starter-quality (Ross) into the starting 5, and there it's not like DeRozan's scoring is redundant in our starting 5.

What you're suggesting would likely elevate Lowry's usage above 30 as well which is not a good thing by any stretch of the imagination. We saw Lowry wear down last year as a result of not having DD around to share the scoring load.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I'm not saying you're hating on DeRozan, I just disagree with the tactic entirely. Because you'd be putting a player who is not starter-quality (Ross) into the starting 5, and there it's not like DeRozan's scoring is redundant in our starting 5.

What you're suggesting would likely elevate Lowry's usage above 30 as well which is not a good thing by any stretch of the imagination. We saw Lowry wear down last year as a result of not having DD around to share the scoring load.

I don't see Lowry's usage increase that much, at least in terms of shot attempts. The whole point of that offensive plan is to feed the post more, and also give the other 3 shooters more high% 3pt looks. Ross' 3&D style of play is a far better fit for that lineup, in that he, Patterson and Carroll (and Lowry too) are multiple perimeter options, to be fed off Lowry dribble-penetration and Valanciunas post-ups.

I think you're getting hung up on the DeRozan-Ross comparison, to which I've said that there's no question who the superior player is straight-up. However, Ross would be the better fit for this style of offense to start the game, where the idea is to get all 5 starters involved in the offense and to get them going. With DeRozan starting along with Lowry, the other 3 players become afterthoughts.

Plus, as I've said, DeRozan will definitely see time with the starting unit, mainly in crunch time in the 2nd and 4th quarters, when the game is on the line. Depending on who has the hot hand and which players are required for matchup purposes, he could replace any of JV/PP/DC/TR. It's really all about setting the defensive tone and getting multiple players going at the start of each half, when the staring lineup doesn't necessarily constitute the 5 best individual players.

[Quirk]

Yeah.... because WP48 is definitely the be-all-end-all of player ranking.

Please feel free to make your own statistical argument, or explain how WP48 doesn't well quantify DD. But do better than the non argument you posted above. Like it or not WP48 is a well known stat, with prominent proponents. Not the be all nor end all to be sure, but you've offered nothing.

[JWash]

I don't see Lowry's usage increase that much, at least in terms of shot attempts. The whole point of that offensive plan is to feed the post more, and also give the other 3 shooters more high% 3pt looks. Ross' 3&D style of play is a far better fit for that lineup, in that he, Patterson and Carroll (and Lowry too) are multiple perimeter options, to be fed off Lowry dribble-penetration and Valanciunas post-ups.

I think you're getting hung up on the DeRozan-Ross comparison, to which I've said that there's no question who the superior player is straight-up. However, Ross would be the better fit for this style of offense to start the game, where the idea is to get all 5 starters involved in the offense and to get them going. With DeRozan starting along with Lowry, the other 3 players become afterthoughts.

Plus, as I've said, DeRozan will definitely see time with the starting unit, mainly in crunch time in the 2nd and 4th quarters, when the game is on the line. Depending on who has the hot hand and which players are required for matchup purposes, he could replace any of JV/PP/DC/TR. It's really all about setting the defensive tone and getting multiple players going at the start of each half, when the staring lineup doesn't necessarily constitute the 5 best individual players.

I'm not getting hung up on the Ross comparison, I just don't see how this strategy would work effectively.

Even the Hawks for all their ball movement had 3 guys (Teague, Millsap, Horford) who could create offense with the ball in their hands. Removing DeRozan from the starting lineup drops us to 2, and while Lowry is a bit better than Teague, JV has not proven himself to be as good as Horford yet.

I also don't get how it "sets the defensive tone" when DeRozan is a better defender than Ross is. (Ross may have tools like foot-speed but he is lazy at times and not very intelligent defensively).

And Korver and Ross is just not even close.

It's not a good idea, not enough talent in the starting 5 to warrant such a move.

[Apollo]

Lowry is more talented, And in regards to production carroll is superior, because the 2 or 3 things carrol does well FAR exceeds demarss top 2 or 3 traits.

Dude is on a contract year and wants $25m/yr. Does this sound like a guy who is OK coming off the bench right now?

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[Abbas]

Dude is on a contract year and wants $25m/yr. Does this sound like a guy who is OK coming off the bench right now?

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lol people here are crazy

DD is almost at his prime and these people suggesting coming off the bench

The only time he'll come off the bench is when he's 32+ unless god forbid a serious injury occurs

[Apollo]

lol people here are crazy

DD is almost at his prime and these people suggesting coming off the bench

The only time he'll come off the bench is when he's 32+ unless god forbid a serious injury occurs

If I took him in my legends league I think he would have issues coming off the bench for Kobe and Elgin. LOL

No way he views himself as a 6th man. He's posting stats and he's too young to realize he's best as a second or third option on a legit contender.

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