Everything Derozan

[special1]

You both forgot those who can distinguish logic from emotion and thus critique from "hate".

Hate implies ignorance. Ignorance implies lack of information/intelligence. There are many people in here suggesting somethings that could be viewed as negative. Those people are providing support and aren't detectably emotional...

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You're right....there is a different between critique and hate. In fact, I think it's very hard to achieve the label of a hater. Here's what i believe someone would have to do to earn such a despicable label.

1. One must continue to come to the same thread day after day for at least a month to tell the whole world how much of a horrible player the former all-star is.

2. One must make comments about the belief that the team would be better if Demar was cut outright, injured or traded for VERY little in return.

3. One must make the comment "I hate him" or "I hate his game."

*this is the most important as it is a confession* There's nothing wrong with saying you dislike a part of someone's game either.

You would need to meet at least 2 out of the above criteria to qualify. Truthfully, there are only a few who meet this criteria.

[BS10]

I support Derozan but I also think Derozan could be utilized more effectively. When he gets utilized more effectively I believe he would be worth max money. However, I also don't think we should lose him as an asset so he very well may be in for a big pay day, which is hard to bite for me.

[JWash]

Let's be real, the DeRozan debate is about more than just his impending contract lol. People pretending that it isn't are lying to themselves.

There has been a debate about whether to keep this guy among internet Raptors fans since his 3rd season. It's not new, every year there's a new "backdrop" to the debate, but there's always a debate. If he was signed through 2020 for 15M a year (i.e. nowhere near the max)... there'd still be a debate.

Year 3: We need to trade this guy, he didn't improve from year 2
Year 4: Fuck BC overpaid him, we need to move him.
Year 5: He lucked into the ASG, trade him while he's at max value
Year 6/offseason of year 6: We need to trade him now, gonna have to overpay him next year

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Let's be real, the DeRozan debate is about more than just his impending contract lol. People pretending that it isn't are lying to themselves.

There has been a debate about whether to keep this guy among internet Raptors fans since his 3rd season. It's not new, every year there's a new "backdrop" to the debate, but there's always a debate. If he was signed through 2020 for 15M a year (i.e. nowhere near the max)... there'd still be a debate.

Year 3: We need to trade this guy, he didn't improve from year 2
Year 4: Fuck BC overpaid him, we need to move him.
Year 5: He lucked into the ASG, trade him while he's at max value
Year 6/offseason of year 6: We need to trade him now, gonna have to overpay him next year

I think you and others are over-simplifying the anti-DeRozan side of the ongoing discussion.

Going back to his early days, as far back as I can recall, the common complaints were:
- doesn't attack the basket enough and does so in a weak way, throwing up circus shots in an attempt to avoid contact
- poor defender
- one-dimensional scorer (doesn't contribute defensively, on the glass, or as a facilitator)
- weak handles
- no 3pt shot from a starting SG

He still doesn't attack the basket as much as I'd like him too, but he definitely gets to the line, in what is very likely his greatest improvement. His defense, handles and secondary contributions have all improved, to levels that would widely be considered average or just hitting minimum expectations for a veteran starter. His 3pt shot is still relatively poor, despite multiple offseasons dedicated to improving it.

As time went on, the common complaints evolved along with his role/salary/expectations:
- inefficient scorer
- one-dimensional scorer (little/inconsistent contribution in terms of rebounds and assists)
- poor defender
- terrible 3pt shot from a starting SG

His defense has reached average levels, especially in the wonky system of DC's that he's so familiar with, but he's still not a great defender in general. He has continued to improve his secondary contributions, but his inconsistency is quite frustrating, because he has given glimpses of being a good rebounding SG and a decent facilitator - and it's absolutely fair to debate whether that's on him, DC's system, or a combination thereof. His shooting/scoring stats speak for themselves, in that he is an inefficient volume scorer who relies on the statistically 'worst' shot in basketball to generate the bulk of his shot attempts, with his ability to get to the line (and convert at a high %) being his saving grace.


The bottom line is that DeRozan's role has always been a ball-dominant, volume scorer. We can't fault him for playing his role, especially when the coach doesn't hold him accountable for poor shooting and/or poor shot selection. I actually think he could be far more valuable shooting less, while playing the role of facilitator more often (there were a couple games this season when his shot wasn't falling so he rebounded and setup his teammates, and looked damn good doing it), which would drastically improve his efficiency numbers and secondary contribution stats.

However, his contract status and likely expected pay day, are the biggest question marks when it comes to DeRozan and the Raptors' long-term team-building. It's not just his value as a player (ie: production per $), but also the opportunity cost of investing so much money in a player that even his biggest fans admit shouldn't be a #1 option. It's a dilemma, and I don't envy MU's position in that regard. It's also hard for us to truly judge the alternatives, when we have no idea what his actual salary demands are/will be, or what his true value is on the trade market.

I just don't get how any discussion or suggestion of a Raptors future that doesn't include DeRozan, can be construed as "hate". I can hate an inefficient hero-ball approach to playing the game of basketball, without hating the player who plays that way (especially when I openly hate on the coach who promotes that style of play and is at least partially responsible for the player playing that way).


---

There were some good discussions going on in there today, before a few pro-DeRozan posters came in and derailed it by dredging up the alleged "hate". For shame...

[Apollo]

You're right....there is a different between critique and hate. In fact, I think it's very hard to achieve the label of a hater. Here's what i believe someone would have to do to earn such a despicable label.

1. One must continue to come to the same thread day after day for at least a month to tell the whole world how much of a horrible player the former all-star is.

2. One must make comments about the belief that the team would be better if Demar was cut outright, injured or traded for VERY little in return.

3. One must make the comment "I hate him" or "I hate his game."

*this is the most important as it is a confession* There's nothing wrong with saying you dislike a part of someone's game either.

You would need to meet at least 2 out of the above criteria to qualify. Truthfully, there are only a few who meet this criteria.

Exactly. That sums it up.

Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

[Apollo]

.

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[JWash]

I just don't get how any discussion or suggestion of a Raptors future that doesn't include DeRozan, can be construed as "hate". I can hate an inefficient hero-ball approach to playing the game of basketball, without hating the player who plays that way (especially when I openly hate on the coach who promotes that style of play and is at least partially responsible for the player playing that way).


---

There were some good discussions going on in there today, before a few pro-DeRozan posters came in and derailed it by dredging up the alleged "hate". For shame...

I really hope this isn't directed at me, because I don't use the terms "hate" or "hater" to describe people's feelings towards DD on here.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I really hope this isn't directed at me, because I don't use the terms "hate" or "hater" to describe people's feelings towards DD on here.

It certainly wasn't meant for you alone, but it was your post musing about all the ways anti-DeRozan posters dislike DeRozan, which was the catalyst for the derailment. There were many chefs in the kitchen, but your post got the pot out and others were happy to start stirring. lol

[e_wheazhy_]

It's funny how you can skip to any page of the Derozan thread and it's always the same conversation/arguments. Once, because of a glitch on tapatalk, I was reading the first couple of posts from 5-6 years ago and I could swear the argument has happened last week. Posters were discussing his midrange shots, whether he had the ability to be a good defender, whether he would be able to shoot threes... The only reason I knew it wasn't a recent argument is when I saw a post "I think I'm 3-4 years he will be an all star..." Since he is an all star, that person was right, and I realized that DeRozan is Raptors Republic's ouroboros

[JawsGT]

I think many would view Demar differently, supporters and detractors alike, if the team played ball a different way. Swapping ISO plays through a few players looks bad for any team, even OKC. Neither Demar nor Lowry are really good ISO players. Both use screens to get free, but just don't utilize the screener/roller often enough or well enough to expand the offence beyond dribble-penetration or dribble-shoot. And Lowry was great without DD, briefly. He fell off a cliff from, IMO, exhaustion due to his high usage. Neither of these guys deserves the usage they had last year, but if we are gonna play the game the way we did, they are by far the best options. JV is great, and deserves higher usage IMO, but still not higher than Lowry or Demar.

I don't know guys, clearly we lack a superstar, yet the team played a superstar brand of ball...it should be no surprise that the results were underwhelming. IF you think this is just the players fault, then I'd have to disagree. If you think Derozan is just hardwired to play the way he does, then I'd disagree with that as well. Thus, I feel most of the negativity towards Demar is a greater reflection of system failures than failures of the player. The same can be said of Lowry, and just about any other player on the team that may have underwhelmed. I just know that if Demar had collapsed ala Lowry last season, this thread would be another 100 pages long, at least. Some of you guys got it twisted IMO, and it's making it very difficult to come to this site, which more and more seems like a place to hate on the team/players.

[Snooch]

and the team usa and allstar game selection stuff started again.

and with it another full on destruction of any actual conversation on the matter to be had....

Of to legacy league!

[Wild-ling#1]

It certainly wasn't meant for you alone, but it was your post musing about all the ways anti-DeRozan posters dislike DeRozan, which was the catalyst for the derailment. There were many chefs in the kitchen, but your post got the pot out and others were happy to start stirring. lol

I don't think it's fair to hold JWash solely responsible for the (i.e. current) "derailment". And by extension, I don't think it's fair to criticize only the people on one side of the debate either. It's clearly been perpetuated by both sides ... and has gotten heated on both sides.

Fair enough?

(I "liked" your post that seemed to be trying to balance the discussion, CalgaryRapsFan ... but missed the stuff at the end

[mcHAPPY]

You nailed it.

Only thing I would change is substitute negative for critical.

I can't believe this 'debate' rages on.

No one here agrees he should be the first option on offense.... even his biggest homer fans question the 'role' he has been put in to.
No one here believes he is a great defender with 'average' being common ground (with the debate being average against opposing teams top wing or average against weaker wing).

Yet a few people here believe he is worth a max or near max contract.


Mind boggling.

Cheer for the name on the front of the jersey unless you're blood with the name on the back.

I've made the bold comment a few times over last number of days and it has not once been directly addressed by anyone.


Does anyone here believe DD is a true, legit 1st option on offense?

Does anyone here believe he is a better than average defender against even the weaker wing opponent?


Does anyone here believe he is worth a max or near max ($20+M) contract given the first 2 questions seem to be a consensus no?

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

I've made the bold comment a few times over last number of days and it has not once been directly addressed by anyone.


Does anyone here believe DD is a true, legit 1st option on offense?

Does anyone here believe he is a better than average defender against even the weaker wing opponent?


Does anyone here believe he is worth a max or near max ($20+M) contract given the first 2 questions seem to be a consensus no?

So only true legit first options get the max now?

By this logic you've already contradicted yourself.

Yes, many believe that he is above average defensively. That has been argued relentlessly with not much movement from either side of the debate. I believe that he's at least average defensively.

Do you believe that he won't get 20+ million? Of course not. We already know that you don't think he deserves it, but the season hasn't even begun. With better shot selection, improved defence and improved 3pt shot, he may very well earn his next contract.

You're trying to simplify something that is much more complex.

Is Demar a superstar? No. There are only a handful of superstars in the league. Are superstars lining up to play here? No. Do we have a realistic shot at getting one here without multiple all-stars or players perceived to be all-star calibre? I don't think so.

The all-star game is in Toronto in 2016. It is my belief that if Demar can remain healthy, he will start that game.

Demar is not going anywhere.... So why bother debating his next contract when we have no idea what they will agree to?

I think he certainly outperformed his current contract and deserves more respect than you seem to want to give him. He's not perfect, but he works hard. Maybe one day he'll live up to your expectations.

More importantly... Maybe one day he'll live up to his own expectations.

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[BS10]

So only true legit first options get the max now?

By this logic you've already contradicted yourself.

Yes, many believe that he is above average defensively. That has been argued relentlessly with not much movement from either side of the debate. I believe that he's at least average defensively.

Do you believe that he won't get 20+ million? Of course not. We already know that you don't think he deserves it, but the season hasn't even begun. With better shot selection, improved defence and improved 3pt shot, he may very well earn his next contract.

You're trying to simplify something that is much more complex.

Is Demar a superstar? No. There are only a handful of superstars in the league. Are superstars lining up to play here? No. Do we have a realistic shot at getting one here without multiple all-stars or players perceived to be all-star calibre? I don't think so.

The all-star game is in Toronto in 2016. It is my belief that if Demar can remain healthy, he will start that game.

Demar is not going anywhere.... So why bother debating his next contract when we have no idea what they will agree to?

I think he certainly outperformed his current contract and deserves more respect than you seem to want to give him. He's not perfect, but he works hard. Maybe one day he'll live up to your expectations.

More importantly... Maybe one day he'll live up to his own expectations.

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I agree and want to add a few things.

Everyone knows there's definitely room for improvement on the defensive end for Derozan. However, we can bring in players to help mitigate Derozan's defensive deficiencies, and I believe we've already done this through the free agency signings that Masai has done this off-season. Quite similar to what Houston does with Harden for the most part-- I'm not comparing Harden and Derozan as players but rather their environment.

Furthermore, it's not uncommon for scoring type players to be average at defence. I mean if you think about it, they're carrying the offensive load and expending most of their energy on one side of the court, which may be a problem for team success, however, having them to play elite defence is not an easy task. Only a handful of Nba players have ever been elite on both sides of the court.

I don't understand all this talk about trading players and determining how much you sign them for without seeing what the player does this season. There's still a whole year of basketball to play in which they can prove to us what they're true value is and not what we feel they should be payed at this moment in time. Its not infrequent to see players make huge strides in their game from off-season to off-season.

I think we should focus on how can we improve our team's success more than anything else. A better question is would keeping Derozan contribute to our team's long term success? I think the answer is yes.

People overlook what having Derozan on our team means; he contributes in other ways and not just scoring on the court. He is a good leader, mentor and hard worker. We need him to use these qualities and influence our younger players. I think that needs to be considered when analyzing max money.

Finally, I am appalled at the idea of overpaying someone that doesn't merit getting paid max money but also the risk of losing Derozan as an asset might force Masai to pay Derozan more than he is worth atm. I don't think thats entirely a bad thing if its only slightly over what his market value may be. However, we have an expert negotiator at the helm in Masai and I don't think anyone should worry about Masai getting swindled but rather worry for the opposition.