Everything Derozan

[special1]

I agree and want to add a few things.

Everyone knows there's definitely room for improvement on the defensive end for Derozan. However, we can bring in players to help mitigate Derozan's defensive deficiencies, and I believe we've already done this through the free agency signings that Masai has done this off-season. Quite similar to what Houston does with Harden for the most part-- I'm not comparing Harden and Derozan as players but rather their environment.

Furthermore, it's not uncommon for scoring type players to be average at defence. I mean if you think about it, they're carrying the offensive load and expending most of their energy on one side of the court, which may be a problem for team success, however, having them to play elite defence is not an easy task. Only a handful of Nba players have ever been elite on both sides of the court.

I don't understand all this talk about trading players and determining how much you sign them for without seeing what the player does this season. There's still a whole year of basketball to play in which they can prove to us what they're true value is and not what we feel they should be payed at this moment in time. Its not infrequent to see players make huge strides in their game from off-season to off-season.

I think we should focus on how can we improve our team's success more than anything else. A better question is would keeping Derozan contribute to our team's long term success? I think the answer is yes.

People overlook what having Derozan on our team means; he contributes in other ways and not just scoring on the court. He is a good leader, mentor and hard worker. We need him to use these qualities and influence our younger players. I think that needs to be considered when analyzing max money.

Finally, I am appalled at the idea of overpaying someone that doesn't merit getting paid max money but also the risk of losing Derozan as an asset might force Masai to pay Derozan more than he is worth atm. I don't think thats entirely a bad thing if its only slightly over what his market value may be. However, we have an expert negotiator at the helm in Masai and I don't think anyone should worry about Masai getting swindled but rather worry for the opposition.

Well said.

Thanks!


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[BS10]

Well said.

Thanks!


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Np.

[Snooch]

I agree and want to add a few things.

Everyone knows there's definitely room for improvement on the defensive end for Derozan. However, we can bring in players to help mitigate Derozan's defensive deficiencies, and I believe we've already done this through the free agency signings that Masai has done this off-season. Quite similar to what Houston does with Harden for the most part-- I'm not comparing Harden and Derozan as players but rather their environment.

Furthermore, it's not uncommon for scoring type players to be average at defence. I mean if you think about it, they're carrying the offensive load and expending most of their energy on one side of the court, which may be a problem for team success, however, having them to play elite defence is not an easy task. Only a handful of Nba players have ever been elite on both sides of the court.

I don't understand all this talk about trading players and determining how much you sign them for without seeing what the player does this season. There's still a whole year of basketball to play in which they can prove to us what they're true value is and not what we feel they should be payed at this moment in time. Its not infrequent to see players make huge strides in their game from off-season to off-season.

I think we should focus on how can we improve our team's success more than anything else. A better question is would keeping Derozan contribute to our team's long term success? I think the answer is yes.

People overlook what having Derozan on our team means; he contributes in other ways and not just scoring on the court. He is a good leader, mentor and hard worker. We need him to use these qualities and influence our younger players. I think that needs to be considered when analyzing max money.

Finally, I am appalled at the idea of overpaying someone that doesn't merit getting paid max money but also the risk of losing Derozan as an asset might force Masai to pay Derozan more than he is worth atm. I don't think thats entirely a bad thing if its only slightly over what his market value may be. However, we have an expert negotiator at the helm in Masai and I don't think anyone should worry about Masai getting swindled but rather worry for the opposition.

to touch on one thing.

it is very risky to wait a season to see how he performs because a) his trade value lessens and b) u risk loosing him for nothing.

[BS10]

to touch on one thing.

it is very risky to wait a season to see how he performs because a) his trade value lessens and b) u risk loosing him for nothing.

Do you think Masai will let an asset go for nothing? I doubt it.

How do you know his trade value will lessen? You haven't even seen the 2015-16 season yet. I heard his value actually goes up.

[mcHAPPY]

So only true legit first options get the max now?

By this logic you've already contradicted yourself.

Yes, many believe that he is above average defensively. That has been argued relentlessly with not much movement from either side of the debate. I believe that he's at least average defensively.

Do you believe that he won't get 20+ million? Of course not. We already know that you don't think he deserves it, but the season hasn't even begun. With better shot selection, improved defence and improved 3pt shot, he may very well earn his next contract.

You're trying to simplify something that is much more complex.

Is Demar a superstar? No. There are only a handful of superstars in the league. Are superstars lining up to play here? No. Do we have a realistic shot at getting one here without multiple all-stars or players perceived to be all-star calibre? I don't think so.

The all-star game is in Toronto in 2016. It is my belief that if Demar can remain healthy, he will start that game.

Demar is not going anywhere.... So why bother debating his next contract when we have no idea what they will agree to?

I think he certainly outperformed his current contract and deserves more respect than you seem to want to give him. He's not perfect, but he works hard. Maybe one day he'll live up to your expectations.

More importantly... Maybe one day he'll live up to his own expectations.

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As always it comes down to but but but he works hard and year 7 is when he finally reigns in his shot selection, starts playing D, and starts hitting 3s..... Good lord.

There is no contradiction on my end. He isn't worth max or near max money - period. He might get it but he isn't worth it. He is not a player with rare skill set or physical abilities. Inefficient volume scorers are easiest players to replace in NBA.

He doesn't help win basketball games. There is no statistical evidence. There is no winning evidence unless first round exits/sweeps provide satisfaction.

But he works hard..... Lol

[Snooch]

Do you think Masai will let an asset go for nothing? I doubt it.

How do you know his trade value will lessen? You haven't even seen the 2015-16 season yet. I heard his value actually goes up.

generally a players value, who is an expiring contract, goes down as the season goes on due to the fact that their cotnract is, you know, expiring.

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

As always it comes down to but but but he works hard and year 7 is when he finally reigns in his shot selection, starts playing D, and starts hitting 3s..... Good lord.

There is no contradiction on my end. He isn't worth max or near max money - period. He might get it but he isn't worth it. He is not a player with rare skill set or physical abilities. Inefficient volume scorers are easiest players to replace in NBA.

He doesn't help win basketball games. There is no statistical evidence. There is no winning evidence unless first round exits/sweeps provide satisfaction.

But he works hard..... Lol

This explains why you were so in love with Bargnani for so many years.

You obviously don't understand or respect the correlation between hard work and improvement.


The truth is that Demar is an all-star caliber player. Of which, we have very little on this team.

Want to make a friendly bet that if Demar's healthy, he will once again be an all-star? I like my odds, especially betting with you.

Laugh at "hard work" all you want but it's proven you wrong so many times.


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[JWash]

I'm still laughing at the idea that DeRozan's skillset/game is "easily replaceable". Almost all the players performing efficiently with DD's role and production are superstars.

It's not as simple as swapping DeMar out with Danny Green and watch all the team's inefficiency problems get fixed. You need players that can create baskets and score the ball against tough defenses, and no these players are not in abundance.

People point to Atlanta and say "Oh look, they move the ball that's what we need, not DD's scoring". Well here's the reality. Horford, Millsap, Teague could all go out and drop 20 points in any given game. Combine having 3 stars with elite level role players and excellent coaching and yeah you've got a great team.

But if anyone thinks that Lowry/JV and a bunch of role players is going to do anything more than our current team, they are clueless.

And then now people are going to say... "Well with DeMar's 20M we could get two great players". Yeah you could get two ROLE PLAYERS which makes the team no better than it is now. And any player you trade him for straight up right now is likely to be worse because he's expiring and no team is going to give up a star in a deal for him.

Only makes sense to trade DD in the case where he's being packaged for an upgrade. Dealing him for parts or mid-late picks is just foolish.

[mcHAPPY]

This explains why you were so in love with Bargnani for so many years.

You obviously don't understand or respect the correlation between hard work and improvement.


The truth is that Demar is an all-star caliber player. Of which, we have very little on this team.

Want to make a friendly bet that if Demar's healthy, he will once again be an all-star? I like my odds, especially betting with you.

Laugh at "hard work" all you want but it's proven you wrong so many times.


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So when faced with the obvious turn to ridicule to prove a point?

You obviously don't get talent. You also obviously don't get that all the great players work on their games relentlessly. So do players who aren't superstars. So do players that play professionally but aren't in the NBA. The difference is they aren't flashing it all over social media, "hey! hey! hey! Look at me! I work hard!" No shit you work hard.



The truth is DD is a former all-star like a long line of former all-stars such as Jamaal Magloire.


I'm not not laughing at hard work. I'm continuing to highlight the lack of skills or ability to command a max or near max contract and the negative impact it would have on Toronto to elevate beyond 1st round speed bump for LOWER seeded teams.

[Snooch]

I'm still laughing at the idea that DeRozan's skillset/game is "easily replaceable". Almost all the players performing efficiently with DD's role and production are superstars.

It's not as simple as swapping DeMar out with Danny Green and watch all the team's inefficiency problems get fixed. You need players that can create baskets and score the ball against tough defenses, and no these players are not in abundance.

People point to Atlanta and say "Oh look, they move the ball that's what we need, not DD's scoring". Well here's the reality. Horford, Millsap, Teague could all go out and drop 20 points in any given game. Combine having 3 stars with elite level role players and excellent coaching and yeah you've got a great team.

But if anyone thinks that Lowry/JV and a bunch of role players is going to do anything more than our current team, they are clueless.

And then now people are going to say... "Well with DeMar's 20M we could get two great players". Yeah you could get two ROLE PLAYERS which makes the team no better than it is now. And any player you trade him for straight up right now is likely to be worse because he's expiring and no team is going to give up a star in a deal for him.

Only makes sense to trade DD in the case where he's being packaged for an upgrade. Dealing him for parts or mid-late picks is just foolish.

First off, a team doesnt always need 1 player to "go iso" if you play a properly structured offense, on some pretty damn good teams it is a combinations of pick and rolls and cuts throughout the game and ISO is saved for end of game situations in which Lowry would do just fine(assuming that with no demar we do not add a player who has that as a skill)

so yes those types of players are available.

Go down through the list of players in the nba, and a large majority of them can do a similar level of overall production as Demar given the same levels of production.

By pretty much EVERYONES account, Demar is not a first option and is better suited as a second or maybe even third option and is an average defender amongst his teamates on a bed defensive team.

So look around the league at all the second and third optioned players...do you expect us to believe that NONE of the players could produce at the rate demar does given demars usage AND offensive struture of the team?

Do you think that Demar is only one of a scattering of players in the nba that can get his own shot(bad point to use BTW as demar is not very good at that as evidenced by the VAST amount of long twos and his patented dribble, dribble pump fake, pump fake lean back leg kick jumper from 22 feet?

And LEts use Danny Green as an example.

Lowry is as capable as Demar at attacking the Rim, in fact in alot of late game on the line situations Lowry is the guy.
Green is a superior shooter and defender to demar so he will create more turnovers and will space the floor better
Carrol is a superior shooter and defender and also has shown that he can attack the rim
Ppat can space the floor and run on the break
JV hopefully will be used more in the offense through p&R and Postups and be surrounded by shooters

That is a team that would have superb ball movement and high efficiency and a realistic chance of having any one or 2 or 3 of those guys hit 20 point on any given night, making it a very hard team to defend and gameplan for meaning the need for continuous isolations from one player to become mostly obsolete.

[Chr1s1anL]

As always it comes down to but but but he works hard and year 7 is when he finally reigns in his shot selection, starts playing D, and starts hitting 3s..... Good lord.

There is no contradiction on my end. He isn't worth max or near max money - period. He might get it but he isn't worth it. He is not a player with rare skill set or physical abilities. Inefficient volume scorers are easiest players to replace in NBA.

He doesn't help win basketball games. There is no statistical evidence. There is no winning evidence unless first round exits/sweeps provide satisfaction.

But he works hard..... Lol

Do you think Raptors get back franchise regard wins without DD?

[Chr1s1anL]

generally a players value, who is an expiring contract, goes down as the season goes on due to the fact that their cotnract is, you know, expiring.

That not true

[Chr1s1anL]

So if DD isn't deserving of a Max than same should be said about JV right?

[JWash]

So if DD isn't deserving of a Max than same should be said about JV right?

DD and JV don't have the same max. JV's starts at ~23% of the cap while DD's starts at ~28% of the cap. That's because JV falls in the 0-6 years of experience bracket while DD is in the 7-9 years of experience bracket.

Technically JV doesn't deserve a max based on current production, but projecting forwards he might if he continues to develop as a defender and shows that he can still be productive in a larger offensive role. Giving him the max would be more about potential.

At this point DD is probably not going to make major improvements moving forwards, so his contract would be based on the player he is now.

My opinion is that neither deserves the max, and that neither is going to get it. I think DD will be getting something starting at around 20M, with JV getting a deal starting in the high teens.

[Chr1s1anL]

DD and JV don't have the same max. JV's starts at ~23% of the cap while DD's starts at ~28% of the cap. That's because JV falls in the 0-6 years of experience bracket while DD is in the 7-9 years of experience bracket.

Technically JV doesn't deserve a max based on current production, but projecting forwards he might if he continues to develop as a defender and shows that he can still be productive in a larger offensive role. Giving him the max would be more about potential.

At this point DD is probably not going to make major improvements moving forwards, so his contract would be based on the player he is now.

My opinion is that neither deserves the max, and that neither is going to get it. I think DD will be getting something starting at around 20M, with JV getting a deal starting in the high teens.

Yeah, I say DD get like 21.5m which I think is fair