Everything Derozan

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Only thing I would question with this Gay-Demar talk is Gay was historically awful here.

There is no way of knowing if that would have continued.

There is no way of knowing if Casey would have kept him bulked up trying to play the 4.

I mean it was so bad for him here, remember the banning of score sheets?

I agree with the premise but am not sure things would have worked out the same and if the Raps would be where they are now.

Gay, like Bargnani, was tied to Colangelo and the old regime/culture. I know that DeRozan, Amir and others were also acquired by BC, but they were never "BC guys" like those two.

I also believe that the breath of fresh air, veteran savvy and professional demeanor that Patterson, Vasquez, Salmons and Hayes brought with them were far more valuable for what they did in the locker room and behind the scenes, than for what they contributed on the court.

Without knowing the specific return that a DeRozan trade would have provided, it's hard to really compare.

[raptors999]

Another factor is Gay previous salary. King were able to dump alot of junk in that trade. Don't know if they do the deal if they keep Salmons and Hayes

[Wild-ling#1]

Market value is meanless for unique goods like NBA players or Houses vs commodities like Oranges and Tires. Market value determines the price of oranges but a house is worth what a buyer will play

Jeez. So you're rejecting the entire concept of a "housing market" now?

"What a buyer will pay" is the definition of "market value" If there is a functioning market. The basic question is "Are there enough bidders"? But whether a good is common or unique is irrelevant to establishing it's market value.

I'd say there were enough bidders for Lamarcus. We can reasonably expect there will be enough bidders for DeMar.

But I'd also say Dan is (not just entitled to, but) knowledgeable enough to opine (perhaps even to a real GM) that, given his assessment of talent, Demar's market value may be "too high". I'll give you that (in fact, I think I did earlier).

But anyone can decide that a good is "too expensive". It's a subtle point, maybe - but that doesn't actually mean that the market value is" wrong". You're only (typically) saying that you feel it's not worth it to you.

In some cases, though, time may prove a particular opinion as regarding a market valuation "correct" (if "winning a championship", say, is the only criterion - not wins, ticket sales, playoff rounds, fan-favouritism, etc.; share performance could be another criterion) . But we are also entitled to our personal valuations - of a car, dog or player.

Market value is a well-defined concept of some utility. Not the be-all and end all. Just useful information.

Okay?

[raptors999]

Jeez. So you're rejecting the entire concept of a "housing market" now?

"What a buyer will pay" is the definition of "market value" If there is a functioning market. The basic question is "Are there enough bidders"? But whether a good is common or unique is irrelevant to establishing it's market value.

I'd say there were enough bidders for Lamarcus. We can reasonably expect there will be enough bidders for DeMar.

But I'd also say Dan is (not just entitled to, but) knowledgeable enough to opine (perhaps even to a real GM) that, given his assessment of talent, Demar's market value may be "too high". I'll give you that (in fact, I think I did earlier).

But anyone can decide that a good is "too expensive". It's a subtle point, maybe - but that doesn't actually mean that the market value is" wrong". You're only (typically) saying that you feel it's not worth to you.

In some cases, though, time may prove a particular opinion as regarding a market valuation "correct" (if "winning a championship", say, is the only criterion - not wins, ticket sales, playoff rounds, fan-favouritism, etc.; share performance could be another criterion) . But we are also entitled to our personal valuations - of a car, dog or player.

Market value is a well-defined concept of some utility. Not the be-all and end all. Just useful information.

Okay?

Housing market is an aggregate number. House number 99 could sell for $1000 but 100 for $200 and 101 for $1500. Buyers don't have complete information. It's like airline seats.

NBA salaries don't work the same but it isn't market driven. They are more like independent auctions with time, buyer etc factoring in

[draps]

Are you guys serious. Keeping Rudy over demar would have been really stupid. The only reason his numbers show better now is because he's playing beside a legit number 1 in cousins, with an actual offence.

[planetmars]

Are you guys serious. Keeping Rudy over demar would have been really stupid. The only reason his numbers show better now is because he's playing beside a legit number 1 in cousins, with an actual offence.

Even when Gay was on Toronto his numbers were close to DeMar's.. At equal value, I'd probably take DD because of age (3 years younger). But you think DD is worth $5-7M+ more than Gay is worth?

[Abbas]

Even when Gay was on Toronto his numbers were close to DeMar's.. At equal value, I'd probably take DD because of age (3 years younger). But you think DD is worth $5-7M+ more than Gay is worth?

I would pay Demar a bit more then Rudy but not a lot


however u do realize if Rudy was a free agent next season Demar and him would have probably gotten near identical contacts

[raptors999]

Are you guys serious. Keeping Rudy over demar would have been really stupid. The only reason his numbers show better now is because he's playing beside a legit number 1 in cousins, with an actual offence.

Raptors just extended a big that could use a SF/PF that can feed him the ball

[special1]

I would pay Demar a bit more then Rudy but not a lot


however u do realize if Rudy was a free agent next season Demar and him would have probably gotten near identical contacts

This.

Rudy may get similar money to Demar if he decides to exercise his player option after the 2016-17 season.

I don't believe Masai regrets keeping Demar over Rudy AT ALL. The team found chemistry with the new pieces that came from the trade. Demar went on to become an all-star and the team took off.

Rudy performed worse than Demar as the #1 option in Toronto. His numbers were horrible and he even banned stat sheets in the locker room. He had every opportunity to be an all-star in the East and it didn't happen for him.

Why would anyone who experienced the whole situation want to trade Demar instead???

Rudy's numbers are good because he plays off of a true #1 option in Cousins. I suspect Demar's numbers would look just as good, if he had the same opportunity.




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[BS10]

This.

Rudy may get similar money to Demar if he decides to exercise his player option after the 2016-17 season.

I don't believe Masai regrets keeping Demar over Rudy AT ALL. The team found chemistry with the new pieces that came from the trade. Demar went on to become an all-star and the team took off.

Rudy performed worse than Demar as the #1 option in Toronto. His numbers were horrible and he even banned stat sheets in the locker room. He had every opportunity to be an all-star in the East and it didn't happen for him.

Why would anyone who experienced the whole situation want to trade Demar instead???

Rudy's numbers are good because he plays off of a true #1 option in Cousins. I suspect Demar's numbers would look just as good, if he had the same opportunity.




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Good post +1

Real question folks, if we get a real #1 option somehow via trade, FA or elsewhere, altering DD's role as the #2 option, does DD improve his #'s/efficiency all around and does he become worth a 20 mil. contract?

[raptors999]

Good post +1

Real question folks, if we get a real #1 option somehow via trade, FA or elsewhere, altering DD's role as the #2 option, does DD improve his #'s/efficiency all around and does he become worth a 20 mil. contract?

Demar game really has become dependant on getting the ball off a handoff then trying to create. He stopping posting, cutting, getting clear off ball on screens to just taking handoffs. A #2 or #3 option needs to get open. Not saying he can't but that he hasn't really been doing that for awhile.

[JWash]

Indeed. And this is partially why there is so much debate about Demar's value. It is rare that a player is actually allowed by his coach to chuck at > 26 USG at below average efficiency (ORTG, 105). Superstars are typically > 27 USG / > 110 ORTG. G.O.A.T. players (Lebron, MJ) can even maintain a ridiculous 120 ORTG at an insane > 30%USG.

But Demar is in that 3rd tier of pseudo-star: > 26 USG and ORTG between 103 and 109. That's exactly Tyreke and Monta territory as S.R. pointed out. There is a wide range of salary for those type of guys, and very often the type of player that franchises regret giving the max amount in hindsight. If you take the last 2 seasons, these are the guys who could replace DD's usage at similar efficiency.

Nick Young and Kevin Martin fit the bill as direct plug-ins at SG, at much lower salary than $20M/year. Marreese Speights would be an interesting high usage option if you chose to upgrade PF.



http://bkref.com/tiny/xGADv

I'm just wondering why DeRozan's 2013-14 wasn't at least mentioned. I understand it doesn't fit in the 26%+/103-109 sample. But I mean we've all seen it before if we've looked at his BREF page.

28% USG and 110 oRTG in a larger sample size than 2014-15 and one that also wasn't affected by an injury. I'm guessing it wasn't included because it's better than every single other example on that list. I understand the point you're trying to make, but omitting that makes it look like there is an agenda. Even if we averaged the two years (2013/14 and 2014/15) we'd get 28.2% and 107 which is closer to Aldridge/Cousins than Reke/Ellis.

Also not sure why Melo's 2014-15 is even on there when he missed half the season. Last two years before this he was at 32.4%/113, and 35.6%/112.

[JWash]

I'm just wondering why DeRozan's 2013-14 wasn't at least mentioned. I understand it doesn't fit in the 26%+/103-109 sample. But I mean we've all seen it before if we've looked at his BREF page.

28% USG and 110 oRTG in a larger sample size than 2014-15 and one that also wasn't affected by an injury. I'm guessing it wasn't included because it's better than every single other example on that list. I understand the point you're trying to make, but omitting that makes it look like there is an agenda. Even if we averaged the two years (2013/14 and 2014/15) we'd get 28.2% and 107 which is closer to Aldridge/Cousins than Reke/Ellis.

Also not sure why Melo's 2014-15 is even on there when he missed half the season. Last two years before this he was at 32.4%/113, and 35.6%/112.

Just to add onto this.

If I run a search for players with 1 or more seasons of 28%+ USG and 109 oRTG or higher since 2009-10 (the year DD entered the league). I get:

- LeBron James
- Kevin Durant
- Steph Curry
- Kevin Love
- James Harden
- Chris Bosh
- Kevin Martin
- Dirk Nowitzki
- Brook Lopez
- Dwyane Wade
- Blake Griffin
- Derrick Rose
- Kobe Bryant
- Carmelo Anthony
- Russell Westbrook
- DeMar DeRozan
- Amar'e Stoudemire

Just goes to show that it's very easily to manipulate stats to get them to say what we'd like.

[golden]

I'm just wondering why DeRozan's 2013-14 wasn't at least mentioned. I understand it doesn't fit in the 26%+/103-109 sample. But I mean we've all seen it before if we've looked at his BREF page.

28% USG and 110 oRTG in a larger sample size than 2014-15 and one that also wasn't affected by an injury. I'm guessing it wasn't included because it's better than every single other example on that list. I understand the point you're trying to make, but omitting that makes it look like there is an agenda. Even if we averaged the two years (2013/14 and 2014/15) we'd get 28.2% and 107 which is closer to Aldridge/Cousins than Reke/Ellis.

Also not sure why Melo's 2014-15 is even on there when he missed half the season. Last two years before this he was at 32.4%/113, and 35.6%/112.

Man, DD talk sure presses buttons, and now I have an anti-Demar agenda? **groan** For the record, I'm usually right there with Joey and Superjudge as a Demar supporter, though nobody can touch Chr1s1an1. lol.

But I'm also realistic that he only had one elite season (albeit after a bad start) and then regressed as the opposition adjusted to him last season, slightly recovered and then layed an egg in the playoffs. To me, this suggests that his all-star season (110 ortg) was a career high water mark. Thus the replacement player we would be looking at would have an Ortg somewhere in between DD's last season and his all-star season. You can split hairs on the ranges selected, but the main point stands which is that Demar's volume scoring ability could be replaced by a potentionally significantly cheaper option. Personally, though, I hope that he comes back this season with a deadly 3pt shot in a revamped ball sharing offense and erases any doubt that he's worth the max. #ProveEm. lol.

[Snooch]

Just to add onto this.

If I run a search for players with 1 or more seasons of 28%+ USG and 109 oRTG or higher since 2009-10 (the year DD entered the league). I get:

- LeBron James
- Kevin Durant
- Steph Curry
- Kevin Love
- James Harden
- Chris Bosh
- Kevin Martin
- Dirk Nowitzki
- Brook Lopez
- Dwyane Wade
- Blake Griffin
- Derrick Rose
- Kobe Bryant
- Carmelo Anthony
- Russell Westbrook
- DeMar DeRozan
- Amar'e Stoudemire

Just goes to show that it's very easily to manipulate stats to get them to say what we'd like.

and if i run the same report and sort by TS% he is 77th.

Or by win shares/48 he is 43rd

or sort by per and he is 88th, just below bargnani and Ellis.

Or by OBPM and he is 73rd right with ellis again



But you know, using winshares, or per, or ts% or OBPM certainly isnt any way to measure ones offensive aptitude...just manipulating the numbers....