Everything Derozan

[Snooch]

Man, DD talk sure presses buttons, and now I have an anti-Demar agenda? **groan** For the record, I'm usually right there with Joey and Superjudge as a Demar supporter, though nobody can touch Chr1s1an1. lol.

But I'm also realistic that he only had one elite season (albeit after a bad start) and then regressed as the opposition adjusted to him last season, slightly recovered and then layed an egg in the playoffs. To me, this suggests that his all-star season (110 ortg) was a career high water mark. Thus the replacement player we would be looking at would have an Ortg somewhere in between DD's last season and his all-star season. You can split hairs on the ranges selected, but the main point stands which is that Demar's volume scoring ability could be replaced by a potentionally significantly cheaper option. Personally, though, I hope that he comes back this season with a deadly 3pt shot in a revamped ball sharing offense and erases any doubt that he's worth the max. #ProveEm. lol.

that logic dont work...

Demar cannot be replaced that simply, he can only be moved for an immediate upgrade, and because no one is going to trade a player better than demar for demar.....

[JWash]

Idk if it's accurate to say that a career best season in a player's 5th year, is going to be the best season of their career moving forwards. I'm not sure that DeMar even regressed last year. Combine the injury with the fact that every single guard on the team (except Lou Will) saw a significant decrease in their shooting efficiency due to the iso heavy offense and it's not really surprising that his numbers would be worse.

[Snooch]

Idk if it's accurate to say that a career best season in a player's 5th year, is going to be the best season of their career moving forwards. I'm not sure that DeMar even regressed last year. Combine the injury with the fact that every single guard on the team (except Lou Will) saw a significant decrease in their shooting efficiency due to the iso heavy offense and it's not really surprising that his numbers would be worse.

its the same offense we ran the season before.

The only change was the addition of Lou, and lou and demar didnt spend a huge amount of time together, so I fail to see how Lou was a direct result in demars regression last season.

and it goes directly against his apparent "improvement" for the last 2 weeks of the season where he was making shots at a rate far above his normal.

[JWash]

Everything Demar Derozan

its the same offense we ran the season before.

The only change was the addition of Lou, and lou and demar didnt spend a huge amount of time together, so I fail to see how Lou was a direct result in demars regression last season.

and it goes directly against his apparent "improvement" for the last 2 weeks of the season where he was making shots at a rate far above his normal.

To say the Raptors offense was the same in 14/15 as it was in 13/14 is ludicrous. Casey even admitted that he and his staff changed the offense to 'accomodate' for all the perimeter scorers by making it more iso heavy. Do you think it's just a coincidence that Lowry, Ross, GV and DeRozan all saw pretty significant drops in TS%?

I'll point you to this thread started by mcHAPPY which quotes an article talking about the changes to the offense. Found this while I was doing a google search looking for a report like this.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post470133

Almost all Raptors fans were complaining about how iso-heavy the offense was last year... even when we were 13-2 people were skeptical of the sustainability.

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

its the same offense we ran the season before.

The only change was the addition of Lou, and lou and demar didnt spend a huge amount of time together, so I fail to see how Lou was a direct result in demars regression last season.

and it goes directly against his apparent "improvement" for the last 2 weeks of the season where he was making shots at a rate far above his normal.

I think most posters who've been around here long enough knows that the offence was NOT the same. Didn't we run HORNS offense in 2013-2014?


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[JWash]

I think most posters who've been around here long enough knows that the offence was NOT the same. Didn't we use to run HORNS offense in 2013-2014?


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100% Correct. Video is from the end of the 2013-14 season.

EDIT: Check out 1:30... 25th in isolation offense usage.

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

Man, DD talk sure presses buttons, and now I have an anti-Demar agenda? **groan** For the record, I'm usually right there with Joey and Superjudge as a Demar supporter, though nobody can touch Chr1s1an1. lol.

But I'm also realistic that he only had one elite season (albeit after a bad start) and then regressed as the opposition adjusted to him last season, slightly recovered and then layed an egg in the playoffs. To me, this suggests that his all-star season (110 ortg) was a career high water mark. Thus the replacement player we would be looking at would have an Ortg somewhere in between DD's last season and his all-star season. You can split hairs on the ranges selected, but the main point stands which is that Demar's volume scoring ability could be replaced by a potentionally significantly cheaper option. Personally, though, I hope that he comes back this season with a deadly 3pt shot in a revamped ball sharing offense and erases any doubt that he's worth the max. #ProveEm. lol.

I disagree with a lot of things in this post.

I don't think 2013-14 will be his career year. He just turned 26 and will be entering into his prime. I expect to see numbers more similar to his 2013-2014 season or even better as the quality of players on his team improves. However, that's what Demar has to prove right?

I keep reading that his volume scoring can be replaced with cheaper options..... Is the goal here to be a better team or one with cheaper volume scoring guards (some who are worst defenders and players than Demar)? How's Monte Ellis and Nick Young on defence? I'm pretty sure they are much worse than Demar. Can either of those players guard SFs for short stretches? Can they lead a team?

Seriously though.... How does Tyreke Evans (a worse player), Nick Young (no defense) or Monte Ellis make us better? Does anyone actually think we'd be where we are now if we had those guys??

Demar is a big part of our offense. You're looking at just scoring. However, he has the ability to move the ball and post up other players. He also rebounds well for his position and is elite at drawing fouls. Are these things easily replaced by going out and getting a cheaper SG?

I don't think he needs to come back with a "deadly 3pt shot".....He just needs to come back and take BETTER shots. He's shown that he can hit corner 3s at a good percentage.

Also, I don't understand this obsession with posters talking about Demar and him wanting the max. This is all speculation.

Everyone (excluding myself) was expecting JV to get max or near max $$ and he signed for 16 million per. I can honestly see DD signing for 18-20 million (depending on his play this coming season). He seems like a loyal guy who wants to win.... I have a lot of faith in Masai to get the right deal done.






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[Abbas]

100% Correct. Video is from the end of the 2013-14 season.

EDIT: Check out 1:30... 25th in isolation offense usage.

Derozan's play-making skills are extremely underrated

[Wild-ling#1]

I value production/talent more than character, which is why I have no problem with an MM acquisition if Masai chooses to.. and that also makes it easier for me to want to trade DeMar (or just not resign him) who seems to had loads of character.

And I think Masai needs to figure out if that is really an important quality in a player. Tyreke or Monta may be on par with DD in terms of talent but neither have the character that DD has. Is $9M a good investment on character and the slight talent upgrade (assuming DD asks for $20M and Tyrke/Monta make about $11M) or would it be better to get one of these other guys and then spend the $9M somewhere else (assuming guys like Tyrke or Monta or even available)?

Ultimately I suspect a resign and then a future trade.. but even trading DD is not going to be an easy decision as it will always come back to character/loyalty vs talent. I have faith in Masai to make the right decision, as he's been generally spot on with his decisions (except for bringing back Casey this year - which is mind boggling).

I like your take. But it might run a little deeper than that, I think. I think it runs to

"Hands Up. Don't Shoot!"

I think it runs to the Clippers players turning their shirts inside-out, before a playoff game ... and getting an owner fired.

It runs to the NBA now being at the epi-center of North American popular culture. It runs to multi-billionaires being jilted by millionaire black men (some from the "projects").

Black basketball players are in the vanguard of a bubbling Black pride. And Drake is right there (with his girl Nicki ... and that little local festival he puts on). You don't have to like hip-hop. But it's a "thing" ... It really is ... Like Rock 'n' Roll was, in it's heyday ... sort of

So I agree, it's about character with DeMar. But the appreciation DeMar has, among his peers, on account of his character may run deeper - and wider - than you've suggested.

When I saw David Price's parents - a mixed couple - in the stands, to watch him pitch his first game here, my reaction was immediate. I was in a bar. And I said, to those near: "Oh, Man! Welcome to Toronto!".

Toronto really is a different place from that which many NBA players are used to. It's sure as hell not Compton. It's not Cleveland, either. I think it might be less a switch for Jonas, than for most. "Hands up. Don't Shoot!" is a curiosity for Jonas ...

And, in addition to everything else - the peace, the prosperity, you name it. Our cool flag ... whatever. And Toronto has a wizard African General Manager. And an experienced African American coach. Go figure ...

And Toronto has DeMar. For now. ...

As a world-famous, brilliant Canadian female musician-singer-songwriter once said:

"Don't it always seem to go,
That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone ...
You pave paradise,
Put up a parking lot!".

Maybe Demar's not the player I think he is. Or the player he thinks he is. But a lot of people who know him - including some very influential people in his crazy world, think he's exactly the man he thinks he is. And if Toronto is the place we think it is , well ...

He is actually a pretty good Basketball player. How good? Not quite sure, yet. But for now he's playing for you. Here.

Maybe have a little talk with Joni ...

[Snooch]

Everything Demar Derozan

To say the Raptors offense was the same in 14/15 as it was in 13/14 is ludicrous. Casey even admitted that he and his staff changed the offense to 'accomodate' for all the perimeter scorers by making it more iso heavy. Do you think it's just a coincidence that Lowry, Ross, GV and DeRozan all saw pretty significant drops in TS%?

I'll point you to this thread started by mcHAPPY which quotes an article talking about the changes to the offense. Found this while I was doing a google search looking for a report like this.

http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post470133

Almost all Raptors fans were complaining about how iso-heavy the offense was last year... even when we were 13-2 people were skeptical of the sustainability.

I cannot find the statistic from 2013-2014 stating just how many iso plays demar was used in during that season, but last year was only 16% frequencey according to NBA.com.

And like I mentioned last night, I dont think the offense was that different, what I should have added in my drunken stuper was a specificity to Demar himself...inside the everything Demar related thread....

What it should have been, was I dont think Demar was used any differently last season the the previous season. I can remember a large amount of isolation plays ran for him spanning over the last three years. I cannot find any support to this, and I dont feel like wasting any more time on it, but someone else might now right where to find it.

[Snooch]

I disagree with a lot of things in this post.

I don't think 2013-14 will be his career year. He just turned 26 and will be entering into his prime. I expect to see numbers more similar to his 2013-2014 season or even better as the quality of players on his team improves. However, that's what Demar has to prove right?

all while having a lower usage rate, a more team structured offense, and fewer touches offensively....that is possible, just highly unlikely that he can match that production.

I keep reading that his volume scoring can be replaced with cheaper options..... Is the goal here to be a better team or one with cheaper volume scoring guards (some who are worst defenders and players than Demar)? How's Monte Ellis and Nick Young on defence? I'm pretty sure they are much worse than Demar. Can either of those players guard SFs for short stretches? Can they lead a team?

please explain how nick young and monta ellis need to lead this team that has Lowry, in fact please explain how demar is a leader here over Lowry.
Please explain how demar is better offensively that Young and Ellis with some sort of support, cause when I look at numbers they are both better shooter, better OBPM, better offensive ratings,
Please explain how demar shows a worse defensive rating that those guys but is a better defender

Demar is a big part of our offense. You're looking at just scoring. However, he has the ability to move the ball and post up other players. He also rebounds well for his position and is elite at drawing fouls. Are these things easily replaced by going out and getting a cheaper SG?

he can draw fouls, that is a stat that can be replaced by usage of other players. that is not an elite stat that is completely irreplaceable.

Demar doesnt post up, and he doesnt move the ball, and while yes he has the ability, that ability is grossly overrated and essentially non existant.

In relation to rebounding, that is pretty good yup, but again something that is easily replaced with a slight frontcourt upgrade. Carroll will rebound better than Ross, so there is demar rebounding replaced..done...easy...
I don't think he needs to come back with a "deadly 3pt shot".....He just needs to come back and take BETTER shots. He's shown that he can hit corner 3s at a good percentage.

Also, I don't understand this obsession with posters talking about Demar and him wanting the max. This is all speculation.

there are repports that say otherwise. Some people here will take a report that mentions an article about how demar was involved in the recruiting process( the article does not exist) and take that as fact over no support from players/people involved in any interview other than a speculative piece that was changed within hours of reports out of toronto, but will completely ignore the reports that speaks of wanting the max. And it is completely relevant, he wants max and is only worth a MOnta type of contract based on what he can actually produce on the court in relation to other players of his ilk. Statistics do no lie, and they place him firmly in the range of a tyreke, eric gordon, monta ellis, swaggy type of production on both ends of the court. period.

Everyone (excluding myself) was expecting JV to get max or near max $$ and he signed for 16 million per. I can honestly see DD signing for 18-20 million (depending on his play this coming season). He seems like a loyal guy who wants to win.... I have a lot of faith in Masai to get the right deal done.

How does JVs contract have any single thing to do with Demars, 3 sentences ago you criticize demar wanting max as mere speculation, then attempt to pass off the same thing.

[Snooch]

I like your take. But it might run a little deeper than that, I think. I think it runs to

"Hands Up. Don't Shoot!"

I think it runs to the Clippers players turning their shirts inside-out, before a playoff game ... and getting an owner fired.

It runs to the NBA now being at the epi-center of North American popular culture. It runs to multi-billionaires being jilted by millionaire black men (some from the "projects").

Black basketball players are in the vanguard of a bubbling Black pride. And Drake is right there (with his girl Nicki ... and that little local festival he puts on). You don't have to like hip-hop. But it's a "thing" ... It really is ... Like Rock 'n' Roll was, in it's heyday ... sort of

So I agree, it's about character with DeMar. But the appreciation DeMar has, among his peers, on account of his character may run deeper - and wider - than you've suggested.

When I saw David Price's parents - a mixed couple - in the stands, to watch him pitch his first game here, my reaction was immediate. I was in a bar. And I said, to those near: "Oh, Man! Welcome to Toronto!".

Toronto really is a different place from that which many NBA players are used to. It's sure as hell not Compton. It's not Cleveland, either. I think it might be less a switch for Jonas, than for most. "Hands up. Don't Shoot!" is a curiosity for Jonas ...

And, in addition to everything else - the peace, the prosperity, you name it. Our cool falf ... whatever. And Toronto has a wizard African General Manager. And an experienced African American coach. Go figure ...

And Toronto has DeMar. For now. ...

As a world-famous, brilliant Canadian female musician-singer-songwriter once said:

"Don't it always seem to go,
That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone ...
You pave paradise,
Put up a parking lot!".

Maybe Demar's not the player I think he is. Or the player he thinks he is. But a lot of people who know him - including some very influential people in his crazy world, think he's exactly the man he thinks he is. And if Toronto is the place we think it is , well ...

He is actually a pretty good Basketball player. How good? Not quite sure, yet. But for now he's playing for you. Here.

Maybe have a little talk with Joni ...

alot of people know and love JYD too, and we kept him as a representative of the team in the front court. We should just do the same with Demar.

All this loyal to the city, people love him gotta keeop him is utter garbage. This is a business first, the business is making money which is done by winning, This team makes money it can spend money, and winning is the biggest draw for a free agent.

You think that if Demar was on minny instead of Wiggins that people would go there to play with him? That that is the difference maker in Minny getting Someone like KD?

Please.....

Teams get players because of:
Money
Ability to win
Off court things, like living conditions etc



and then way down here is player personel

[Axel]

I wish Demar posted up more. It seems like even though he used to develop that part of his game, it rarely seems to happen.

[Snooch]

I wish Demar posted up more. It seems like even though he used to develop that part of his game, it rarely seems to happen.

it seems like he always fall back into what he considers his comfort zone of isolating

[JWash]

I wish Demar posted up more. It seems like even though he used to develop that part of his game, it rarely seems to happen.

I agree, but posting up for a guard has a lot to do with where you catch the ball. Most of the time DeMar is being guarded by small forwards, so while he can still use his post game against them if he's positioned well, he doesn't have the sheer power to back them down from the perimeter to the paint like LeBron was doing to the Warriors in the finals.

This is something that would be easier if he wasn't the primary option on the team (or if we just ran a better motion/movement offense). Look at where Kawhi is catching the ball here, and you can't see it in the video but there's a lot of pre-post up action occurring off the ball to get a switch so he can go against a smaller player.