Everything Derozan

[Axel]

I agree, but posting up for a guard has a lot to do with where you catch the ball. Most of the time DeMar is being guarded by small forwards, so while he can still use his post game against them if he's positioned well, he doesn't have the sheer power to back them down from the perimeter to the paint like LeBron was doing to the Warriors in the finals.

This is something that would be easier if he wasn't the primary option on the team (or if we just ran a better motion/movement offense). Look at where Kawhi is catching the ball here, and you can't see it in the video but there's a lot of pre-post up action occurring off the ball to get a switch so he can go against a smaller player.

Yeah I don't really buy that excuse. If DD wants good positioning, cut through the lane from weak side to ball side, then stop; should give him that opportunity to be deep and have the defender on his back.

I also don't see how being #1 option has anything to do with it. If anything, as a number 1 scoring option you would think keep the defence off balance with different looks (post, off screen cut, hand off, PnR, etc).

[JWash]

Yeah I don't really buy that excuse. If DD wants good positioning, cut through the lane from weak side to ball side, then stop; should give him that opportunity to be deep and have the defender on his back.

I also don't see how being #1 option has anything to do with it. If anything, as a number 1 scoring option you would think keep the defence off balance with different looks (post, off screen cut, hand off, PnR, etc).

To each their own then. I disagree, it's not junior varsity basketball so securing the ball in the position you want, with a mismatch is going to take more than just a smart cut especially when the other team is game-planning to stop you as the #1 guy (hell that wouldn't even be simple to do in JV either).

[golden]

I disagree with a lot of things in this post.

I don't think 2013-14 will be his career year. He just turned 26 and will be entering into his prime. I expect to see numbers more similar to his 2013-2014 season or even better as the quality of players on his team improves. However, that's what Demar has to prove right?

I keep reading that his volume scoring can be replaced with cheaper options..... Is the goal here to be a better team or one with cheaper volume scoring guards (some who are worst defenders and players than Demar)? How's Monte Ellis and Nick Young on defence? I'm pretty sure they are much worse than Demar. Can either of those players guard SFs for short stretches? Can they lead a team?

Seriously though.... How does Tyreke Evans (a worse player), Nick Young (no defense) or Monte Ellis make us better? Does anyone actually think we'd be where we are now if we had those guys??

Demar is a big part of our offense. You're looking at just scoring. However, he has the ability to move the ball and post up other players. He also rebounds well for his position and is elite at drawing fouls. Are these things easily replaced by going out and getting a cheaper SG?

I don't think he needs to come back with a "deadly 3pt shot".....He just needs to come back and take BETTER shots. He's shown that he can hit corner 3s at a good percentage.

Also, I don't understand this obsession with posters talking about Demar and him wanting the max. This is all speculation.

Everyone (excluding myself) was expecting JV to get max or near max $$ and he signed for 16 million per. I can honestly see DD signing for 18-20 million (depending on his play this coming season). He seems like a loyal guy who wants to win.... I have a lot of faith in Masai to get the right deal done.

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Bingo. I'm in total agreement that no team really wants players like Tyreke Evans and Monta Ellis; but as much as I like Demar, I have to be honest and realize that he is a similar efficiency type of volume scoring offensive player to Nick Young and Kevin Martin. That's really the the point of the comparison. DD brings the some of the same negatives to the table as those guys.

S.R. kicked off the discussion by suggesting that there were cheaper options than max (or near max) salary that could replace DD's USG with similar scoring efficiency, and that is absolutely true. I would suggest that Demar beats almost all of those alternatives on intangibles, but at what price? His calling card is scoring which is what you would be paying him for - and we haven't even gotten into a discussion on clutch scoring, yet.

[Axel]

To each their own then. I disagree, it's not junior varsity basketball so securing the ball in the position you want, with a mismatch is going to take more than just a smart cut especially when the other team is game-planning to stop you as the #1 guy (hell that wouldn't even be simple to do in JV either).

Lol of course it's not junior varsity, but you can't honestly expect people believe that NBA athletes can't get good post positioning just because they aren't in high school.

Athletics and physics remain the same. So using change of direction and speed will still work against larger defenders. Sealing your man or using screens (or sealing your man after setting a screen) will still work against smaller defenders.

Thought a simple example was enough to demonstrate the point.

Plus pretty sure most gameplans to stop Demar don't spend much time worry about his post play cause he doesn't use it enough. Most game plans are focused on "don't jump on pump fakes", "likes the catch the ball here", "doesn't pass".

[Chr1s1anL]

I cannot find the statistic from 2013-2014 stating just how many iso plays demar was used in during that season, but last year was only 16% frequencey according to NBA.com.

And like I mentioned last night, I dont think the offense was that different, what I should have added in my drunken stuper was a specificity to Demar himself...inside the everything Demar related thread....

What it should have been, was I dont think Demar was used any differently last season the the previous season. I can remember a large amount of isolation plays ran for him spanning over the last three years. I cannot find any support to this, and I dont feel like wasting any more time on it, but someone else might now right where to find it.

How come when your defending Ross as a starter you use that he was hurt last year but, when applied to Dd its an excuse?

[Chr1s1anL]

If Monta, Swaggy P, Tyreke Evans are all as good as DD how non of these guys have ever been All-Stars?

[Chr1s1anL]

The difference between 13-14 and 14-15 is one year he missed 25 games and the other he didn't.

[Just Is]

If Monta, Swaggy P, Tyreke Evans are all as good as DD how non of these guys have ever been All-Stars?

This isn't a good argument. In fact, it's actually a very bad one.

Especially when people like Dragic (who was 3rd team All NBA) and Conley haven't been all-stars either. And, if I recall last year correctly, Monta was one of the bigger snubs.

[JWash]

If Monta, Swaggy P, Tyreke Evans are all as good as DD how non of these guys have ever been All-Stars?

This is a really... really bad argument. And I'm on the same side as you.

[Just Is]

Bingo. I'm in total agreement that no team really wants players like Tyreke Evans and Monta Ellis; but as much as I like Demar, I have to be honest and realize that he is a similar efficiency type of volume scoring offensive player to Nick Young and Kevin Martin. That's really the the point of the comparison. DD brings the some of the same negatives to the table as those guys.

S.R. kicked off the discussion by suggesting that there were cheaper options than max (or near max) salary that could replace DD's USG with similar scoring efficiency, and that is absolutely true. I would suggest that Demar beats almost all of those alternatives on intangibles, but at what price? His calling card is scoring which is what you would be paying him for - and we haven't even gotten into a discussion on clutch scoring, yet.

That's the actual crux of the argument.

Based on all available stats as well as the eye test, how much more is Demar worth than them? Keeping in mind that Ellis just signed a 4 year 44 million deal with Indiana. Assuming it's 11 per year (I know it's not but it makes the math easier), how much more than that is Demar worth for similar production? For instance, in Scenario 3 a few pages back, I said that I'd be fine with giving him a 4 year, 66 million (a difference of an additional 5.5 per year) deal but I also don't know if I'd be able to really defend that position when comparing it to Ellis' contract. Even more so since I know Demar will get offered more than that just because there will be a LOT of money to go around next off season and NOT a lot of players to spend it on and, due to Demar's high usage and PPG, his name will stand out.

[Chr1s1anL]

The DD that close out the season. How much is he worth? Cause that's who I think will show up this upcoming season.

[special1]

Seems to me that Demar gets off to slow starts.

He got off to a slow start in 2013-2014 and played way better the rest of the way en route to becoming an all-star for the first time.

He got off to a slow start in 2014-2015, then got injured for a month and a half.... However, he played much better to end the season. He had a great month of March and April (winning player of the month honours).

Take away the slow starts and the injury and we have a pretty good player here.


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[Just Is]

The DD that close out the season. How much is he worth? Cause that's who I think will show up this upcoming season.

When I came up with the numbers I would be willing to pay DD, I took that into account (and I assume most others did as well) as well as what would be reasonable to expect for the rest of the season. Otherwise (and I am NOT comparing the two but it was the first example that came to mind), that's how you'd justify paying big money for those 13 games of Bargs.

In order to just look at that, you'd pretty much have to ignore the DD we saw for the rest of the year. Although DD was injured for part of the season, his pre-injury numbers don't look that good either. And there's no way you could justify pay any player a certain amount for such a small fraction of time.

Not to mention, if we were also only looking at that specific period of time, you'd also have take a look at how his numbers looked in the context of how the team as a whole performed.

Take away the slow starts and the injury and we have a pretty good player here.

I don't think very many people are arguing that he's a bad player. It's determining how much the player is worth for what he brings to the table.

[special1]

That's the actual crux of the argument.

Based on all available stats as well as the eye test, how much more is Demar worth than them? Keeping in mind that Ellis just signed a 4 year 44 million deal with Indiana. Assuming it's 11 per year (I know it's not but it makes the math easier), how much more than that is Demar worth for similar production? For instance, in Scenario 3 a few pages back, I said that I'd be fine with giving him a 4 year, 66 million (a difference of an additional 5.5 per year) deal but I also don't know if I'd be able to really defend that position when comparing it to Ellis' contract. Even more so since I know Demar will get offered more than that just because there will be a LOT of money to go around next off season and NOT a lot of players to spend it on and, due to Demar's high usage and PPG, his name will stand out.

The CAP situations are different.

If Monte was a free agent next year or the year after, there's a chance that he would be making much more than 11 million per.

Also, it appears that there are other factors such as age (Demar is 4 years younger than Monte), Size (Demar is 4 inches taller), Etc. that makes Demar more valuable than Monte at the same position.


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[Snooch]

How come when your defending Ross as a starter you use that he was hurt last year but, when applied to Dd its an excuse?

I havfe done no such thing, but ross being hurt is one of a number of reasons not to write him off so quickly.

Demar being hurt doesnt change 5.5 seasons of performance and play at not only his natural position but also bein spoon fed his opportunities.

Fact is:
Ross was hurting
Ross was out of position\
Ross is not a player like demar so expecting him to be an iso threat when demar was injured was stupid
Ross constantly guards players bigger than him.

Fact is
Demars season was shit before he got hurt, demars production has remained mostly confident for his entire career with the exception of his peak in 2013-2014(as of now, not going to debate futures with anyone, but fact is, as of today that 2013-2014 has been his peak..the rest is speculation on if he can improve back to that level and/or above that level.)

there are no excuses from me.