Everything Derozan

[Axel]

And you don't feel like if we did run a ton of movement sets, and occasionally throw Demar into the ISO with the proper matchup, you don't think that would function 100% better as a system then what we currently run for him?

Half of the players people talk about when comparing Demar are just as much a product of their system as Demar is of his.

I don't think Demar is effective enough off ball to really provide great value in another system. His skill set and the things he is successful at require the ball in his hands. He would be somewhat productive but not nearly enough to warrant the salary that he'll likely command from his production in this system.

Some skills transfer to all systems. Korver would be welcome on any team and be of great benefit. Not sure the same gets said of DD.

[Axel]

Yes I know, it was a joke to point out how when people use "All Star" in defending Demar, it is laughed off as nothing more than fluff. Yet, it seems to be fair game when its used to denegrate him, or make a point about how little value he holds around the league.

My example was under the "in a vacuum" realm. In a vacuum, he is.

[Joey]

I don't think Demar is effective enough off ball to really provide great value in another system. His skill set and the things he is successful at require the ball in his hands. He would be somewhat productive but not nearly enough to warrant the salary that he'll likely command from his production in this system.

Some skills transfer to all systems. Korver would be welcome on any team and be of great benefit. Not sure the same gets said of DD.

NO ONE on our team is effective off ball, because no sets are run to take advantage of guys moving off ball.
I'm sure if you came up with plays that had Demar (et al) move around while Lowry is dribbling the shit out of the ball, I'm sure we'd see some nice plays. Even with Carroll, who is so used to moving off ball, even he has been completely marginalized in this offense as a catch and shoot guy.

[JWash]

My example was under the "in a vacuum" realm. In a vacuum, he is.

What "vacuum" is that exactly? I don't get what that even means. The last time he was fully healthy before the break he made the all-star team. He's probably going to make it this year also.

[Wild-ling#1]

But supposedly "practicing relentlessly and tirelessly" is Demar's calling card. Maybe he's spending most of his time practicing dribbling and how to get fouled.

Ouch!
I took the reports that he practiced the 3 this summer (and went off in the Drew League) at face value.

But he's playing a lot of important minutes as a scorer in a tough sched - and with other options (Ross/Patterson/JV) MIA (and little practice time). If/as other options come back online and he gets more and comfortable with other things he's working on, we may see him commit more to the 3.

Maybe. Fingers crossed. It would be F$#!ing excellent!

[Axel]

NO ONE on our team is effective off ball, because no sets are run to take advantage of guys moving off ball.
I'm sure if you came up with plays that had Demar (et al) move around while Lowry is dribbling the shit out of the ball, I'm sure we'd see some nice plays. Even with Carroll, who is so used to moving off ball, even he has been completely marginalized in this offense as a catch and shoot guy.

I'm talking skill sets, not production under Casey.

CoJo, Carroll, Lowry, Ross all show off ball skills even in our terrible system. All have in common, good shooters (although Ross needs to start hitting). CoJo and Carroll are especially good with cuts off ball and Lowry has been playing more off ball.

[Axel]

What "vacuum" is that exactly? I don't get what that even means. The last time he was fully healthy before the break he made the all-star team. He's probably going to make it this year also.

It's a pretty common expression. Google it.

[tDotted]

I'm talking skill sets, not production under Casey.

CoJo, Carroll, Lowry, Ross all show off ball skills even in our terrible system. All have in common, good shooters (although Ross needs to start hitting). CoJo and Carroll are especially good with cuts off ball and Lowry has been playing more off ball.

DeMar can play off the ball.. he's shown it in the past. Playing off the ball is not just spotting up for three point looks.

[mcHAPPY]

I thought we weren't allowed to call Demar an All-Star... people get all upset when Demar is referred to as an All-Star, no?

And again, I think Korver represents more than just a "Role Player".. He's a starter, and was a Starter for the best team in the league last year, and maintains the most dead-eye long ball from someone not named Steph Curry. I could certainly where some teams may value the ability to shoot off the catch.

I can also see where some teams may value a player who can create his own shot and get the other team into foul trouble.

I think people need to watch some Spurs games to realize that good teams DO in fact use ISO as well, and quite a bit more than people may admit too. Manu and Kawhi have ISOs run for them several times every night. Now, would we see these plays being run for a player like Korver to attack the basket or attack the mismatch? Absolutely not.


And lastly, if we're ignoring Contracts for this scenario, then we can assume that either Demar is getting paid alot less (which would make him and his skillset much more desirable) .. or Kyle Korver is getting paid alot more, in which case, his contributions get cast with a bit of shade.
So I'm not sure how we can say "regardless of contracts" or whatever.

That is just me.

[JWash]

It's a pretty common expression. Google it.

I know what the expression means, but how can someone be an all-star in a vacuum? You're either an all-star or you're not.

[Joey]

My example was under the "in a vacuum" realm. In a vacuum, he is.

In a vacuum he is what? An All-Star?

[Snooch]

I thought we weren't allowed to call Demar an All-Star... people get all upset when Demar is referred to as an All-Star, no?

And again, I think Korver represents more than just a "Role Player".. He's a starter, and was a Starter for the best team in the league last year, and maintains the most dead-eye long ball from someone not named Steph Curry. I could certainly where some teams may value the ability to shoot off the catch.

I can also see where some teams may value a player who can create his own shot and get the other team into foul trouble.

I think people need to watch some Spurs games to realize that good teams DO in fact use ISO as well, and quite a bit more than people may admit too. Manu and Kawhi have ISOs run for them several times every night. Now, would we see these plays being run for a player like Korver to attack the basket or attack the mismatch? Absolutely not.


And lastly, if we're ignoring Contracts for this scenario, then we can assume that either Demar is getting paid alot less (which would make him and his skillset much more desirable) .. or Kyle Korver is getting paid alot more, in which case, his contributions get cast with a bit of shade.
So I'm not sure how we can say "regardless of contracts" or whatever.

several times, and 40% of ones possessions is a big difference

[Joey]

several times, and 40% of ones possessions is a big difference

Agreed. Good thing ISO isn't called 40% of the time with Demar.

He is tasked with attacking the basket, creating his own shot, and attacking his man off the dribble, but an actual "Isolation" play really isn't called that often. Honestly, pretty sure I've seen more Iso's called for Lowry this year than Demar.

[KeonClark]

In a vacuum he is what? An All-Star?

In a vacuum he is that nickel you were too lazy to pick up so it's clanking it's way through the hose.

[JWash]

DeMar can play off the ball.. he's shown it in the past. Playing off the ball is not just spotting up for three point looks.

Yup. I think Rip Hamilton and Richard Jefferson are two good examples to look at. Two wings with similar skillsets to DeRozan who were able to do a ton of damage off ball despite not taking very many 3 point shots. Both guys were getting assisted on high 60s% to low 70s% of their 2PT attempts during the best years of their careers. DeRozan is at 31% this season and was in the 40s% the 2 years prior to this one, and he was only ever in the range those guys were at during his rookie year.

Again I think DeRozan could be deployed differently and be made much more effective while still putting up significant scoring numbers. Using DD primarily in isolation sets is not the best way to maximize his skillset. With a guy who excels at drawing fouls and finishing at the rim, you want him catching the ball on the move in or just outside of the paint, not creating something out of nothing from 25 feet. Could also be utilized in high post sets, for corner 3s as I mentioned before as well as P&R/iso sets on occasion when he has a switch to create a match-up advantage.

NBA isn't exclusively reserved for superstars, cutters and 3PT shooters. There are so many other skillsets on offense that can be used to create an effective team.