Everything Derozan

[Wild-ling#1]

Possible, though unlikely. Still, paying above value just because the market is inflated doesn't mean it is a good signing.

If the market is temporarily inflated, then you've got a point, possibly.

But if it's just inflation as it typically operates, then ... it's just the (new) market value. I've said before that savvy people (investors, managers) do outperform the market. But the scenario I just proposed has Masai actually doing that.

The resistance to the very possibility of re-signing DeMar, even under market-value, though, is really my point (of course).

[DanH]

If the market is temporarily inflated, then you've got a point, possibly.

But if it's just inflation as it typically operates, then ... it's just the (new) market value. I've said before that savvy people (investors, managers) do outperform the market. But the scenario I just proposed has Masai actually doing that.

The resistance to the very possibility, though, is really my point (of course).

Yeah, but the cap boom is a temporary inflation in cap available to talent available, even if the cap continues to rise - the next two summers will see massive overpays happen due to simple supply and demand being messed up.

I don't understand you constantly bringing up "possibility." Yes, literally everything is possible. Can we stop having to qualify that now? It is possible the players strike and a new emergency CBA is formed where a whole bunch of new rules apply and the whole conversation is moot but it is ridiculous to even imagine such a scenario in spite of the technical possibility of it. The rest of us are discussing what is (in our opinions) reasonably likely.

[planetmars]

Is Billy King still working for the Nets? I could see him giving DD $25M.

[Joey]

I think the expectation is a crazy GM offers it and then either Masai caves and gives it to him or he walks.

Pretty much.

Also, you think Masai will cave? Personally, I don't think Masai is in Danger ... he IS the Danger.
He is the one that knocks.

[Wild-ling#1]

Yeah, but the cap boom is a temporary inflation in cap available to talent available, even if the cap continues to rise - the next two summers will see massive overpays happen due to simple supply and demand being messed up.

I don't understand you constantly bringing up "possibility." Yes, literally everything is possible. Can we stop having to qualify that now? It is possible the players strike and a new emergency CBA is formed where a whole bunch of new rules apply and the whole conversation is moot but it is ridiculous to even imagine such a scenario in spite of the technical possibility of it. The rest of us are discussing what is (in our opinions) reasonably likely.

I didn't say anything indefensible or cock-eyed, Mr. Hackett. I have a firm grasp of the concepts of "supply and demand", "inflation" (and related concepts). And I'm not discussing things in bad-faith.

And while your position is clear - offer DeMar $17-19M - I haven't even criticized you for dangerously "low-balling" a key asset. We might sign him for that. And I've accepted that view.

So I don't think you have any reason to be upset ... much less patronizing.

[S.R.]

If the market is temporarily inflated, then you've got a point, possibly.

But if it's just inflation as it typically operates, then ... it's just the (new) market value. I've said before that savvy people (investors, managers) do outperform the market. But the scenario I just proposed has Masai actually doing that.

The resistance to the very possibility, though, is really my point (of course).

This would be fine if there were no cap and player salaries reflected their true market value, but with the team salary and max contract caps, guys who deserve more (Durant/Lebron) are essentially underpaid when their contracts are maxing out at the same level as borderline All-Stars. To win championships you need to throw your team's cap at the true top 10 or top 20 level players. The basic problem is that a guy like DeMar will burn up too much of your cap and now you don't have the space for that true top tier guy anymore. The fact that DeMar's market value may be $25m because somebody else will give it to him is sort of beside the point.

[DanH]

I didn't say anything indefensible or cock-eyed, Mr. Hackett. I have a firm grasp of the concepts of "supply and demand", "inflation" (and related concepts). And I'm not discussing things in bad-faith.

And while your position is clear - offer DeMar $17-19M - I haven't even criticized you for dangerously "low-balling" a key asset. We might sign him for that. And I've accepted that view.

So I don't think you have any reason to be upset ... much less patronizing.

I didn't say you said anything indefensible. I simply pointed out that it seems every discussion with you ends with you asking if the alternative is at least possible, which I was suggesting was an inane question to be asking over and over again, since the answer is obviously yes, and yet has no bearing on any of the discussions you ask it in.

My position is obviously not clear if that is what you think it is.

[Axel]

Also, you think Masai will cave? Personally, I don't think Masai is in Danger ... he IS the Danger.
He is the one that knocks.

I don't think Masai will cave. Masai's new boss is a different possibility.

Don't know exactly how that dynamic works yet but I'm hoping MLSE stays out of Masai's way.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I don't think Masai will cave. Masai's new boss is a different possibility.

Don't know exactly how that dynamic works yet but I'm hoping MLSE stays out of Masai's way.

If MU doesn't think that DeRozan's demands are at a value that makes sense for the team, I have no doubt the he will simply walk away. He let Amir (fan favorite) and Lou (6th man of the year) walk for nothing, so I have every confidence that whatever he decides, he does so with a plan in place.

[Wild-ling#1]

I didn't say you said anything indefensible. I simply pointed out that it seems every discussion with you ends with you asking if the alternative is at least possible, which I was suggesting was an inane question to be asking over and over again, since the answer is obviously yes, and yet has no bearing on any of the discussions you ask it in.

My position is obviously not clear if that is what you think it is.

An obvious (and shameless, I think) exaggeration.

But suggesting that "I think 'x'", and asking the more assertive among us "if 'x' is possible" (to further discourse), is good manners ... and good grammar and rhetoric, as I understand it.

Telling people they are offering only banalities and irrelevancies - especially if untrue ... not.

[JWash]

Question: If you were hired as the Raptors' coach, how would you make Demar effective given his current game and his potential? (This scenario assumes Masai gives him a contract and Casey is gone)

I'm struggling to figure out how to manage him. I feel like if there's an answer to this question, then there's an argument for extending his contract.

Get a 3+D guy to start at SG (and no I don't mean a fake one like Ross) and give him the Harden/Manu role off the bench. He won't play it quite as well, but he could be deadly in that situation. If he's playing poorly (due for one of his 4-19 nights) you reduce his minutes or yank him when he does dumb shit (like Pop does with Manu). He'd have the advantage of not really having to guard top players (except at the end of the game most likely) and likely having weaker defenders covering him (and really let's be honest with ourselves, DeRozan usually wrecks bad defenders, he struggles when you put length on him because he doesn't have the first step to get the blow by).

Argument here is going to be "why the fuck would you pay $20M per year for your 6th man?" Well as a % of the cap that IS what elite 6th men in the past have made on contending teams (Terry in Dallas, Manu in San Antonio, Crawford in his earlier Clippers days, etc).

Would also greatly help our bench which can't score for shit outside of CoJo. DD would put pressure on the defense and help free up guys like Ross/2Pat for easier looks.

Kind of a moot point though because DeRozan probably won't be a 6th man as a Raptor ever (although perhaps he could be convinced that it's better for the team, we've seen some guys near/at/above his level make that transition before, Noah being a recent example).

EDIT: This strategy would also require the hiring of a much, MUCH better coach. Because if you take DD out of the starting lineup and keep trying to run this iso crap, you're going to need Lowry to have ~35% usage to win games, and like I said before he will die on the court.

[Primer]

Absolutely not.

That is why I have been all for trading him, or at worst case, a sign and trade with someone(although I think return on a sign and trade would involve a bad contract...whereas trading now would probably net an expiring and a young asset)

and his current win share is 2.1

I would not call that "on pace for 8"

2.1 win shares in 21 games. That's 0.1 win share per game, which adds up to 8.2 Win Shares in an 82 game season. He's absolutely on pace for 8 win shares.

I'm of the opinion we'll get way more value for Derozan if we trade him after resigning him then if we tried to move him now, which is why I'd rather wait until we resign him to try and move him. At worst, Demar is asking too much, and Masai will get something back in a sign and trade with whoever wants to pay him, that will be roughly equivalent to the return we'd get for trading Demar right now.

I can't see us making any major trades during the season unless the wheels come off and we dip below .500. Then anything is on the table (especially firing the shit out of Casey!).

[JWash]

2.1 win shares in 21 games. That's 0.1 win share per game, which adds up to 8.2 Win Shares in an 82 game season. He's absolutely on pace for 8 win shares.

I'm of the opinion we'll get way more value for Derozan if we trade him after resigning him then if we tried to move him now, which is why I'd rather wait until we resign him to try and move him. At worst, Demar is asking too much, and Masai will get something back in a sign and trade with whoever wants to pay him, that will be roughly equivalent to the return we'd get for trading Demar right now.

I can't see us making any major trades during the season unless the wheels come off and we dip below .500. Then anything is on the table (especially firing the shit out of Casey!).

Was going to point this out, but you beat me to it. Was really confused by the notion that DD isn't on pace for 8+ WS. Only way he doesn't get there is if he has a drop-off in performance (and history says DD tends to improve as the season goes on) or he gets injured.

[Axel]

If MU doesn't think that DeRozan's demands are at a value that makes sense for the team, I have no doubt the he will simply walk away. He let Amir (fan favorite) and Lou (6th man of the year) walk for nothing, so I have every confidence that whatever he decides, he does so with a plan in place.

But that was with Tim as Masai's boss. New guy in charge now and that relationship hasn't really been tested.

I hope and guess that Masai still holds all the cards but wouldn't shock me to see the bean counter interfere.

[Snooch]

2.1 win shares in 21 games. That's 0.1 win share per game, which adds up to 8.2 Win Shares in an 82 game season. He's absolutely on pace for 8 win shares.

I'm of the opinion we'll get way more value for Derozan if we trade him after resigning him then if we tried to move him now, which is why I'd rather wait until we resign him to try and move him. At worst, Demar is asking too much, and Masai will get something back in a sign and trade with whoever wants to pay him, that will be roughly equivalent to the return we'd get for trading Demar right now.

I can't see us making any major trades during the season unless the wheels come off and we dip below .500. Then anything is on the table (especially firing the shit out of Casey!).

congratulations, you were right, my bad.

you should really feel proud, not very often I make a mistake, much less have it seen.

but it changes NOTHING as 8 win shares is pretty weak from a starting sg on a team that wins 48 or so games a season, as at this point he is still 13th among shooting guards for win shares and is behind Corey Joseph.