Everything Derozan

[JWash]

I don't think Lowry's championship window is that big. We need to maximize the fit of talent around him and overpaying anyone will limit what we can do. DD is fine to keep but it's the cost that is the biggest problem. DD is also a prime overpay candidate because of his usage. He's been given maximum opportunity (high usage, minimal accountability or defence required). He isn't a premier talent but he will likely get paid like one because of the market.

Overpaying anyone hurts the team right now. We simply can't afford a big miss.

And the way to capitalize on that window is to let DD walk and replace him with 2 role players?

Lowry is out the fucking door in 2017 if we do that.

[JWash]

We're talking about stuck in mediocrity yet willing to tie up the same amount of space that would be spent on DeRozan on two role players...

And Masai is not going to let DeRozan walk, it's not his M.O. Look at the way the guy has operated in the past and tell me that he's going to let the 2nd highest value asset on the roster walk for nothing.

[Wild-ling#1]

Seems to me, keeping DeMar can only be a "miss" with respect to the opportunity cost - foregoing the chance for a "generational" player to keep him . But Masai's hands won't be tied going into free agency. It's just that there aren't going to be many "true-max upgrades" available, but ... que sera, sera ...

But if we do keep DeMar, at $24M, a lot of other things can go "right". I'm not "down" on Casey, quite yet, but can easily imagine that a coaching change might be a great thing. And we still have players (JV, Ross, Bruno) who might deliver on "up-side", during Kyle's window, and better integrate CoJo, DeMarre, etc.. Packaging our 2016 picks might net us somebody useful at the 4, too.

So I can't see keeping DeMar as a "miss", exactly. Not "miss" like a draft "bust", anyway. He's a known quantity, whose numbers may not have quite peaked. His window is wider than Kyle's. Improving his shot selection and assists, even a little, this year are very good things ...

[Axel]

And the way to capitalize on that window is to let DD walk and replace him with 2 role players?

Lowry is out the fucking door in 2017 if we do that.

The way to do that is to have a better balanced team next year. If we commit big money to DD then we are bargain bin shopping at PF.

A lesser SG and a better PF would make a better team since we have depth and options in the back court that we simply don't have at the 4 spot.

[Axel]

We're talking about stuck in mediocrity yet willing to tie up the same amount of space that would be spent on DeRozan on two role players...

And Masai is not going to let DeRozan walk, it's not his M.O. Look at the way the guy has operated in the past and tell me that he's going to let the 2nd highest value asset on the roster walk for nothing.

Yet your convinced that DD won't get a max offer. How can you be so convinced of Masai keeping DD but so dismissive of all the pro-writers who said he will get the max?

[Axel]

Seems to me, keeping DeMar can only be a "miss" with respect to the opportunity cost - foregoing the chance for a "generational" player to keep him.

It doesn't have to be a generational player. Any improvement to our weaknesses (PF, perimeter shooting in general) is greatly limited by overpaying DD to be our SG. Hard to greatly improve a team when paying so much to a player that isn't worth it.

[JWash]

The way to do that is to have a better balanced team next year. If we commit big money to DD then we are bargain bin shopping at PF.

A lesser SG and a better PF would make a better team since we have depth and options in the back court that we simply don't have at the 4 spot.

No it wouldn't make a better team because we'd have less higher end talent.

I get that this is the "2015 Atlanta model" (I'm not quoting you here, but people have become obsessed with this idea of just having a ton of role players) or whatever you're suggesting with having high level role players, but the reality is they had a guy who's basically at Lowry's level in Horford and two guys who were around DeRozan's level in Millsap and Teague, not to mention the best catch and shoot guy in the league and a great 3+D guy in Carroll.

You move DeRozan and you have two guys left on the team who are high end talents, two. The NBA isn't as simple as plugging role players into roles and putting in a system and winning. All these teams that have great ball movement also have an abundance of great players. Spurs have Duncan, Kawhi, Tony, Manu, Aldridge and the best coach arguably in NBA history. Warriors have Klay, Curry, Green, Iguodala, Bogut. These are star level players all of them.

You can't just win with a band of role players and Kyle Lowry. Cleveland tried that with LeBron for pete's sake and it didn't work. Downgrading from DeRozan to some mediocre SG and doing a mini-upgrade to the PF spot all for 25M isn't pushing this team any further than where it is now. We're just going to be relying more on Lowry (and JV) for production night after night.

I repeat, this is not the Rudy Gay situation where DeMar is taking 19 shots to score 19 points. He is producing offensively at an elite level right now. You cannot just cast that aside for role players and expect the team to improve.

The way I see it, if the "best option" is to let DD walk and sign a bunch of replacement level players then I say just fucking blow the whole thing up minus JV, CoJo and the young guys and picks. Makes more sense than thinking that guys like Afflalo and Marvin Williams are going to take this team to the next level.

[JWash]

Yet your convinced that DD won't get a max offer. How can you be so convinced of Masai keeping DD but so dismissive of all the pro-writers who said he will get the max?

I have not said that DD it's impossible for DD to get a max offer. He very well could, I just don't think he will. And if he does, the Raptors imo will not have to max him to keep him, they will simply need to use the extra year to offer more security by offering more total dollars over a longer term.

On the other hand, Masai keeping DD is logical. This is a guy who does not throw away assets. If he wasn't going to try his damndest to keep DD he would've traded him by now. It's pretty clear the plan is to at least make a serious attempt to re-sign him and if necessary trade him later like he did with Nene in Denver.

[Axel]

No it wouldn't make a better team because we'd have less higher end talent.

I get that this is the "2015 Atlanta model" (I'm not quoting you here, but people have become obsessed with this idea of just having a ton of role players) or whatever you're suggesting with having high level role players, but the reality is they had a guy who's basically at Lowry's level in Horford and two guys who were around DeRozan's level in Millsap and Teague, not to mention the best catch and shoot guy in the league and a great 3+D guy in Carroll.

You move DeRozan and you have two guys left on the team who are high end talents, two. The NBA isn't as simple as plugging role players into roles and putting in a system and winning. All these teams that have great ball movement also have an abundance of great players. Spurs have Duncan, Kawhi, Tony, Manu, Aldridge and the best coach arguably in NBA history. Warriors have Klay, Curry, Green, Iguodala, Bogut. These are star level players all of them.

You can't just win with a band of role players and Kyle Lowry. Cleveland tried that with LeBron for pete's sake and it didn't work. Downgrading from DeRozan to some mediocre SG and doing a mini-upgrade to the PF spot all for 25M isn't pushing this team any further than where it is now. We're just going to be relying more on Lowry (and JV) for production night after night.

I repeat, this is not the Rudy Gay situation where DeMar is taking 19 shots to score 19 points. He is producing offensively at an elite level right now. You cannot just cast that aside for role players and expect the team to improve.

The way I see it, if the "best option" is to let DD walk and sign a bunch of replacement level players then I say just fucking blow the whole thing up minus JV, CoJo and the young guys and picks. Makes more sense than thinking that guys like Afflalo and Marvin Williams are going to take this team to the next level.

It's not the Hawks model, it's the build a team model; you know...to play a team game.

[Axel]

I have not said that DD it's impossible for DD to get a max offer. He very well could, I just don't think he will. And if he does, the Raptors imo will not have to max him to keep him, they will simply need to use the extra year to offer more security by offering more total dollars over a longer term.

On the other hand, Masai keeping DD is logical. This is a guy who does not throw away assets. If he wasn't going to try his damndest to keep DD he would've traded him by now. It's pretty clear the plan is to at least make a serious attempt to re-sign him and if necessary trade him later like he did with Nene in Denver.

Amazing, I never said you said it was impossible either. So either you aren't reading what I write or you are inventing points to counter.

But again, you are convinced that DD will take less than the max to return.

[JWash]

It doesn't have to be a generational player. Any improvement to our weaknesses (PF, perimeter shooting in general) is greatly limited by overpaying DD to be our SG. Hard to greatly improve a team when paying so much to a player that isn't worth it.

I just want to point out that even if we re-signed DeMar for the absolute max (worst case scenario) and wanted to retain Lowry in 2017, we would still have around 20M cap space with Lowry's cap hold. That's assuming we pick up options on all our prospects and keep at least one pick from 2016 and 2017 each.

[JWash]

It's not the Hawks model, it's the build a team model; you know...to play a team game.

And you can play a team game just fine with DeRozan, better than with 2 mediocre players that's for sure.

[golden]

From a Masai perspective I think the 2 main considerations wrt to re-signing DD are:

1) Is DD's contract trade-able at market value? A:> If Derozan maintains this seasons elite production, then his contract is highly trade-able, even near the max. Especially given his age and potentially 2 all-star selections on his resume.

2) The perception that Toronto is a prime free agent destination, meaning Masai wants Toronto to be viewed as a place that re-signs our own top FAs, and recruits top FAs away from other cities.

Given the above, and Masai's ability to get fair (or better) value in trades, I think it's fairly certain that Demar will be re-signed at close to the max. If the Raps flame-out again in the playoffs, then Casey will be gone and DD will get a new coach. Thibs!

[Chr1s1anL]

It's not the Hawks model, it's the build a team model; you know...to play a team game.

This isn't high school or college. You need upper echelon talent to win.

[raptors999]

This isn't high school or college. You need upper echelon talent to win.

OKC have never reached a non-Strike shortened final