Everything Derozan

[Axel]

Actually, if I remember correctly, the win percentage without Demar was slightly worse.

So Demar played in Just 15 games and missed 15 games.....out of 82

Am I the only one noticing the OBVIOUS cherry picking???

Perhaps it's time for you to actually do some research before you post such claims and then just try to poke holes in anyone who contradicted your made up facts.

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

I didn't feel like going through line by line. He missed all of December. We went 11-4. You said our record was better with DD in than out but we went 7-8 during DDs hero stretch.

Feel free to do the research yourself if you want to contradict me.

Easy.

The Raptors went

1-5 in the 6 games before Demar came back

3-6 in the 9 games before Demar came back

Overall the Raptors went 12-10 without Demar

This with Lowry going supernova for most if not all of them.

37-23 with Demar (62 percent winning percentage)

12-10 without Demar (55 percent winning percentage)

Your argument is clearly flawed.




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[JWash]

No one said exclusively to replace demar with free agents, in fact trades is what most people would like to see happen.

So you could make those same trades with DeRozan re-signed. In fact you'd have more trade options with DeRozan re-signed as even he would be part of those options.

But even at that....guys who could be had in free agency for around 20-25 million for 2...

sg/sf:
Fournier, Gordon, Mayo, Henderson

pf:
Pau, Anderson, Jones, Mirza, Sullinger, Green

With the way Fournier and Ryan Anderson are playing there's no way they're going to come for ~10M each, those guys are going to get paid this offseason. Or do you think their production is deserving of a Ross-like contract?

NO ONE HAS SAID THAT!!! That is more of your baiting.

No but suggesting that replacing DeRozan with mediocre players who have little impact on the floor would improve the team is basically saying that taking away DeRozan's impact wouldn't hurt the team much. I understand the concept of "fit" but I don't see how DeRozan doesn't fit the team. Who or what is he conflicting with? Listen to another team's stream when we're playing a game (particularly evident during the Warriors one), they know and expect the Raptors to run primarily one on one plays every time down the floor. That's not because of DeRozan it's because of Dwane Casey and his system or lack thereof.

Cap takes a nice jump again in 2017, so signing players to a contract at 10 million ish per(which is what was discussed) would not have a huge impact on capspace in 2017 and would still have close to max space....and with the option to resign lowry or not could give us MAximum space plus.

If you sign 2 players for the amount that DD would get paid combined that leaves the same amount of space as there would be if you re-signed DeRozan. If we re-signed DeRozan to his worst case scenario contract (max deal, 27M in 2017-18) we would still have close to $20M cap space with Lowry's $18M cap hold on the books.

[Axel]

You keep talking about "space" but are ignoring the fact that slashers as good as DeRozan create spacing for their teams. Watch how the defense reacts to him getting into the paint, they collapse and try to protect the basket. This creates "space" on the outside for shooters and even diverts attention away from bigs making them great targets for a drop-off pass for an easy score.

Slashing/cutting can create space on the perimeter but brings defenders to the paint. The opposite goal of the 4 out system. Using cuts is still an asset but it can't trump the spacing created by having good perimeter shooters.

[Axel]

Easy.

The Raptors went

1-5 in the 6 games before Demar came back

3-6 in the 9 games before Demar came back

Overall the Raptors went 12-10 without Demar

This with Lowry going supernova for most if not all of them.

37-23 with Demar (62 percent winning percentage)

12-10 without Demar (55 percent winning percentage)

Your argument is clearly flawed.




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Yes, because it is all about DD.

I made the mistake of assuming you were talking about records when KL played hero vs DD played hero. Because the record the rest of the time is impacted by the other.

[JWash]

Axel, I've seen you mention not maintaining the status quo. Getting rid of DeRozan isn't the solution there. Right now the way for this team to win more and progress further in the playoffs, sans adding a superstar, would be to play a better brand of basketball. That would require a coaching change and a significant overhaul to our system, rotations and style of play. DD doesn't need to go for that to happen.

Not saying we have Steph Curry, but the Warriors were about as good as we are now (47-35, 1st round exit, I know that's in the west but still) in 2013-14 under Marc Jackson. The team wasn't achieving its full potential because of Marc Jackson not maximizing all the weapons they had on the offensive side of the floor. The next year with basically the exact same roster (only real additions were Livingston and Barbosa) they won the NBA championship.

Now obviously a coaching change alone is very likely not going to win us the title, because we don't have the superstar to take us there, however it could result in a much better brand of basketball being played. And yes DeMar DeRozan can be a part of that better brand of ball.

[JWash]

Yes, because it is all about DD.

I made the mistake of assuming you were talking about records when KL played hero vs DD played hero. Because the record the rest of the time is impacted by the other.

Lowry played hero ball the entire time DD was gone, he was just absolutely on fire in December. 22-9-4 on 58 TS% in December. It's not like the team was really playing differently, in fact I actually remember being annoyed that Casey was basically running the same sets for Ross that he ran for DeMar (which obviously wasn't working).

Then Lowry slumped in January scoring only 16ppg on 48 TS%.

[Axel]

Yes, because it is all about DD.

I made the mistake of assuming you were talking about records when KL played hero vs DD played hero. Because the record the rest of the time is impacted by the other.

So instead the argument is that DD is a star because we were "slightly worse" without him.

[JWash]

Slashing/cutting can create space on the perimeter but brings defenders to the paint. The opposite goal of the 4 out system. Using cuts is still an asset but it can't trump the spacing created by having good perimeter shooters.

Why is bringing defenders the opposite goal of the system? Aren't you trying to hit threes as well? Bringing defenders into the paint leaves a ton of daylight for those shooters to do what they do.

[special1]

Yes, because it is all about DD.

I made the mistake of assuming you were talking about records when KL played hero vs DD played hero. Because the record the rest of the time is impacted by the other.

Regardless, I said Kyle needs a guy like Demar and your argument that he didn't was flawed. Hindsight, he blew a gasket.

AND our team record is better with Demar (even though Kyle played pretty bad after the all-star break).

What Kyle gave us in November/December just kept us afloat. It was also offset by the crap we received after.


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[JWash]

So instead the argument is that DD is a star because we were "slightly worse" without him.

Ok... nobody said that. DD is a star because he's putting up star level production this season and basically continuing where he left off in 2013-14 but with a more concerted effort to attack the basket with the drive. In 2014-15 he did not play well, some of which had to do with the injury midseason not allowing him to correct his slow start (he's a notorious slow-starter, look at any of his splits from his past 6 seasons) until March/April really, and also due to the fact that he just wasn't playing as smart. That's not the DeRozan we're seeing now and it's not the one we saw in 2013-14.

[Snooch]

So you could make those same trades with DeRozan re-signed. In fact you'd have more trade options with DeRozan re-signed as even he would be part of those options.

No because waiting to make those trades would be a waste of time and would most likely involve having to take back additional salary.

With the way Fournier and Ryan Anderson are playing there's no way they're going to come for ~10M each, those guys are going to get paid this offseason. Or do you think their production is deserving of a Ross-like contract?

Purely opinion, go after them hard and fast in the first hours of free agency cause teams will be chasing the bigger names.

No but suggesting that replacing DeRozan with mediocre players who have little impact on the floor would improve the team is basically saying that taking away DeRozan's impact wouldn't hurt the team much. I understand the concept of "fit" but I don't see how DeRozan doesn't fit the team. Who or what is he conflicting with? Listen to another team's stream when we're playing a game (particularly evident during the Warriors one), they know and expect the Raptors to run primarily one on one plays every time down the floor. That's not because of DeRozan it's because of Dwane Casey and his system or lack thereof.

you cannot state with any certainty that players playing in a different system would produce equally to what they do on the team they are currently on. Marvin is a damn solid player, and has shown far more consistancy this year and a floor spacing four, as opposed to being mostly a sf in previous years. Put Marvin in Ppats roll right now and we improve....alot....

Fournier has been bein used differently this season, and look, he has made nice strides in his game from what he was last season....people could see what his role should have been, and he wasnt being used in it. Put his shooting beside Carrolls ability to post up, JVs post up and lowrys ability to get in the lane and he is scoring 20 per game instead of 14

If you sign 2 players for the amount that DD would get paid combined that leaves the same amount of space as there would be if you re-signed DeRozan. If we re-signed DeRozan to his worst case scenario contract (max deal, 27M in 2017-18) we would still have close to $20M cap space with Lowry's $18M cap hold on the books.

[/QUOTE]

I know. but you can structure deals in ways other than just straight 2 year, "x" raises per...you can have declining deals with incentives built in, etc....but that is secondary to maximum raises for a non max contract being calculated at 4.5 percent of base years salary as opposed to 7,5% of a max salary.

[special1]

So instead the argument is that DD is a star because we were "slightly worse" without him.

Axel ... We were first in the East before DD got injured remember?

13-2

Then he went down and everything fell to pieces. The defense fell apart and Lowry fell apart. The team never recovered and Lowry didn't recover.

How this shows that we're better without DD must be the spin of all spins. It's actually not even debatable. There's blood everywhere. Yes, it all started when Demar got injured.


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[Snooch]

Slashing/cutting can create space on the perimeter but brings defenders to the paint. The opposite goal of the 4 out system. Using cuts is still an asset but it can't trump the spacing created by having good perimeter shooters.

clogging the lane makes your bigmen useless on offense. you need to employ a 5 out mode of attack doing that.

5 guys at the three point line, 1 or 2 guys taking turns attacking and kicking out.


Alot easier with a 4 out 1 in. Let your bigman work inside to score some high % shots istead.

[Snooch]

Axel, I've seen you mention not maintaining the status quo. Getting rid of DeRozan isn't the solution there. Right now the way for this team to win more and progress further in the playoffs, sans adding a superstar, would be to play a better brand of basketball. That would require a coaching change and a significant overhaul to our system, rotations and style of play. DD doesn't need to go for that to happen.

that is where you are mistaken. severely mistaken.

Demars top attributes are what he does now, and those plays are the result of our system.


Change the system, he becomes less effective (as evidenced by mountains of data over a 7 year career) making him more easily one on one replaceable and making his impending max contract a massive overpay.