Everything Derozan

[Snooch]

Lowry played hero ball the entire time DD was gone, he was just absolutely on fire in December. 22-9-4 on 58 TS% in December. It's not like the team was really playing differently, in fact I actually remember being annoyed that Casey was basically running the same sets for Ross that he ran for DeMar (which obviously wasn't working).

Then Lowry slumped in January scoring only 16ppg on 48 TS%.

yes he did, and ross slumped, GV was logging alot of time at sg, and we played tougher opponents....so what is the point here?

[Snooch]

Why is bringing defenders the opposite goal of the system? Aren't you trying to hit threes as well? Bringing defenders into the paint leaves a ton of daylight for those shooters to do what they do.

That must be why Carroll is shooting so much better from three now that he is no longer playing with a guy like Horford drawing defenders down low as opposed to demar attacking the rim.....

[Snooch]

Regardless, I said Kyle needs a guy like Demar and your argument that he didn't was flawed. Hindsight, he blew a gasket.

AND our team record is better with Demar (even though Kyle played pretty bad after the all-star break).

What Kyle gave us in November/December just kept us afloat. It was also offset by the crap we received after.


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Kyle doesnt need demar, he needs something though.

JV wasnt as good last season as he is now, Ross sucked bad last season, there was no Carroll last season.

Basically it boiled down to

Demar

or
Bad ross/Vasquez.

So sure...our record was better when Demar played more than Vasquez....not by alot mind you...but yeah...better....wow....so much superstar....

[JWash]

No because waiting to make those trades would be a waste of time and would most likely involve having to take back additional salary.

What do you mean by waiting to make those trades? I don't even get what you're saying here. If we want to make deals they can still be made with DD on the roster.

Purely opinion, go after them hard and fast in the first hours of free agency cause teams will be chasing the bigger names.

It's not purely opinion. Fournier is a restricted free agent, Orlando can match anything so you're going to have to pay him a significant chunk of money to get him off their hands. He's starting for them right now and arguably been their best player this season, so I don't see them letting him go for a cheap 10M lol. And Ryan Anderson is going to be the best stretch 4 on the market. He's putting up 18-6 right now shooting 38% from 3, and already makes $8.5M on a deal he signed several years ago. He's due for a significant pay-raise still being 28 in the offseason. If you could sign Ryno and Fournier for 25M I'd be all for it, but the reality is they're not going to be that cheap. It's a new market.

you cannot state with any certainty that players playing in a different system would produce equally to what they do on the team they are currently on. Marvin is a damn solid player, and has shown far more consistancy this year and a floor spacing four, as opposed to being mostly a sf in previous years. Put Marvin in Ppats roll right now and we improve....alot....

No you can't state that with certainty. Yet people keep stating with certainty that DeMar can't be part of a team that moves the ball effectively and plays a more team-oriented style of basketball. Who knows if DD wouldn't be even better if we improved our system?

Fournier has been bein used differently this season, and look, he has made nice strides in his game from what he was last season....people could see what his role should have been, and he wasnt being used in it. Put his shooting beside Carrolls ability to post up, JVs post up and lowrys ability to get in the lane and he is scoring 20 per game instead of 14

Carroll's ability to post up? What? Carroll doesn't post up, he has 2 post ups in 18 games this year. And he wasn't a post up guy in Atlanta either (for some reason you can't view that data from last year on NBA.com right now).

I know. but you can structure deals in ways other than just straight 2 year, "x" raises per...you can have declining deals with incentives built in, etc....but that is secondary to maximum raises for a non max contract being calculated at 4.5 percent of base years salary as opposed to 7,5% of a max salary.

Yeah you could have declining deals but that would mean even less flexibility in 2016-17. Besides all these proposals you're suggesting could be done with DeMar as well.

[Snooch]

Axel ... We were first in the East before DD got injured remember?

13-2

Then he went down and everything fell to pieces. The defense fell apart and Lowry fell apart. The team never recovered and Lowry didn't recover.

How this shows that we're better without DD must be the spin of all spins. It's actually not even debatable. There's blood everywhere. Yes, it all started when Demar got injured.


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The team played above their head last season....13-2 start holds as much weight as 12 game bargnani.

Demars injury does nothing to change that as team was able to get games against teams with both injured players, on back to backs, and teams that had made MAJOR personel/coaching changes.

[Snooch]

What do you mean by waiting to make those trades? I don't even get what you're saying here. If we want to make deals they can still be made with DD on the roster.

You said to wait until he signed....i said why wait. that is a pretty simple thing to understand.

It's not purely opinion. Fournier is a restricted free agent, Orlando can match anything so you're going to have to pay him a significant chunk of money to get him off their hands. He's starting for them right now and arguably been their best player this season, so I don't see them letting him go for a cheap 10M lol. And Ryan Anderson is going to be the best stretch 4 on the market. He's putting up 18-6 right now shooting 38% from 3, and already makes $8.5M on a deal he signed several years ago. He's due for a significant pay-raise still being 28 in the offseason. If you could sign Ryno and Fournier for 25M I'd be all for it, but the reality is they're not going to be that cheap. It's a new market.

Yes they can match, but reports arlier in the year where that they most likely wont, as they Love Dipo and have Mario under control on rookie contract....they want to have Max capspace and with Vuc and Dipo soon for extentions, Fournier is most likely the odd man out.

Everything else you posted is in fact your opinion.

No you can't state that with certainty. Yet people keep stating with certainty that DeMar can't be part of a team that moves the ball effectively and plays a more team-oriented style of basketball. Who knows if DD wouldn't be even better if we improved our system?

He can be, but his effectiveness would be far less than a player with a skill set that fits that style of play...namely shooting and not needing the have the ball for 3-4 seconds a possession, with 4-6 dribbles, 28% of the time. And when Demar has lower usage his numbers will drop...that is a given....and then he is worth even less than the max he is most likely going after than what he is now.

Carroll's ability to post up? What? Carroll doesn't post up, he has 2 post ups in 18 games this year. And he wasn't a post up guy in Atlanta either (for some reason you can't view that data from last year on NBA.com right now).

you do know he played alot of Power forward in college right? that he was a tweener coming into the draft?

Yeah you could have declining deals but that would mean even less flexibility in 2016-17. Besides all these proposals you're suggesting could be done with DeMar as well.

with the exception of the 4.5% raises annually....as Demar is entitled to 7.5%.

[Axel]

Why is bringing defenders the opposite goal of the system? Aren't you trying to hit threes as well? Bringing defenders into the paint leaves a ton of daylight for those shooters to do what they do.

Because that is simply not how the offensive scheme works. The entire foundation is built upon the space afforded the interior player by the shooting threats spaced around them. Compromising that would limit the effectiveness of the entire system. It would be like taking the Warriors pass heavy model and change all the passes to dribble hand offs. You need to keep the foundation principles the same but tweak and adjust elsewhere.

Now DD could play in this system. He could camp in the weak side corner but he would be a poor fit and would be getting paid way too much for that role.

The system works. Detroit isn't a very good team but is only 0.5 game back of us, despite zero games played by Jennings and losing their starting SG in the second game. We can take this system, work in more options due to our talent level and be a significantly better team.

[yabadabayolo]

.



you do know he played alot of Power forward in college right? that he was a tweener coming into the draft?



.

Lol wtf. U want the guy who's carved out a niche for himself as a threepoint shooter to start posting up. Which he's absolutely shit at, as evident by the fact that every time he's posted up this year, he couldn't lol.

You do know that just because someone played some pf doesn't mean they are good post up guys? There's a reason he doesn't play there anymore

[Axel]

Incoherent excuses is all I just read.

No evidence of anything.... This doesn't support anything.

How about the 7-8 record in March when DD was putting up lines of 23.9, 6 & 4 including 45% from deep?

[JWash]

Because that is simply not how the offensive scheme works. The entire foundation is built upon the space afforded the interior player by the shooting threats spaced around them. Compromising that would limit the effectiveness of the entire system. It would be like taking the Warriors pass heavy model and change all the passes to dribble hand offs. You need to keep the foundation principles the same but tweak and adjust elsewhere.

Now DD could play in this system. He could camp in the weak side corner but he would be a poor fit and would be getting paid way too much for that role.

The system works. Detroit isn't a very good team but is only 0.5 game back of us, despite zero games played by Jennings and losing their starting SG in the second game. We can take this system, work in more options due to our talent level and be a significantly better team.

Yup we can take that system work in more options due to the talent level afforded to us by Lowry, DeMar and JV and perhaps be a better team, would require a coaching change for that to actually happen though. I don't see how replacing DD with role players makes that any better or significantly improves the team.

DeMar could do a lot more in that system than just camp the corner. Idk if you think the 4 guys on the outside are just meant to stay out there parked on the three point line, there's supposed to be movement and having a guy who's dangerous as a penetrator off drives and pick and roll helps free up options for everybody else within that system or any other if used effectively.

I think the point your missing is the Raptors are already operating on a fringe right now. We're good but not great and the only way to get to that next level is to acquire a superstar or get one of the best coaches in the league to take over and implement his system. Again removing DD is not the solution it's just a grass is greener option being presented by people who have wanted the guy gone for years and still maintain that narrative despite him performing significantly better this year and in 2013-14 than he has in any other season of his career.

[Snooch]

Lol wtf. U want the guy who's carved out a niche for himself as a threepoint shooter to start posting up. Which he's absolutely shit at, as evident by the fact that every time he's posted up this year, he couldn't lol.

You do know that just because someone played some pf doesn't mean they are good post up guys? There's a reason he doesn't play there anymore

I said his "ability to post up", not that I want his to exclusively post up, but perhaps 1 or 2 a game wouldnt hurt and could replace the 1 or 2 post ups per game that we used to run for Demar.

You just took one tidbit of what I posted and microscoped it in an effort to de-value any other points made.


and he posted up twice this season....I find a sample size of 2 hard to base an opinion on.

[yabadabayolo]

I said his "ability to post up", not that I want his to exclusively post up, but perhaps 1 or 2 a game wouldnt hurt and could replace the 1 or 2 post ups per game that we used to run for Demar.

You just took one tidbit of what I posted and microscoped it in an effort to de-value any other points made.


and he posted up twice this season....I find a sample size of 2 hard to base an opinion on.

Carrol is a catch and shoot three point shooter. That's it. He can't post up, there's a reason he doesn't, he doesn't have have the footwork, or the strength to back down. This is the same guys his missed multiple layups this year.

Asking carrol to post up, even 2 or three times a game, is like asking demar to shoot 2-3 more threes per game. Neither of them could do it, because it's not their game and they are shit at it

[JWash]

How about the 7-8 record in March when DD was putting up lines of 23.9, 6 & 4 including 45% from deep?

You realize we were 4-7 in February right? The Raptors were playing like shit for basically the entire new year. That's not all on DeRozan. It's on a flawed offensive system combined with leaky, terrible defense. That's why we got bodied and exposed in the playoffs.

[JWash]

Carrol is a catch and shoot three point shooter. That's it. He can't post up, there's a reason he doesn't, he doesn't have have the footwork, or the strength to back down. This is the same guys his missed multiple layups this year.

Asking carrol to post up, even 2 or three times a game, is like asking demar to shoot 2-3 more threes per game. Neither of them could do it, because it's not their game and they are shit at it

This. It's like every other player in the league can somehow adapt and add skillsets and wrinkles to their games to fit into new schemes and play better, but DD somehow just can't.

[JWash]

I said his "ability to post up", not that I want his to exclusively post up, but perhaps 1 or 2 a game wouldnt hurt and could replace the 1 or 2 post ups per game that we used to run for Demar.

You just took one tidbit of what I posted and microscoped it in an effort to de-value any other points made.


and he posted up twice this season....I find a sample size of 2 hard to base an opinion on.

DeMar is taking on about 3 post-up possessions per game (77 in 29 games) and scoring 0.97 PPP off them which is the 2nd highest on the team after JJ (who only has 9 post ups in 23 games) and in the 78th percentile for the league. He scores on 51.9% of his post ups which is T-6th highest in the league among players with 50 or more post up possessions this season (~2+ per game like you suggested). Carroll has 2 post ups in 18 games.

You can't just pass DD's post production off to another player who has not demonstrated any ability to do it.