Everything Derozan

[Axel]

You realize we were 4-7 in February right? The Raptors were playing like shit for basically the entire new year. That's not all on DeRozan. It's on a flawed offensive system combined with leaky, terrible defense. That's why we got bodied and exposed in the playoffs.

No it's not but when he was at his best, above career norms across the board, we were mediocre. That says a lot about his "star" candidacy.

[Axel]

Yup we can take that system work in more options due to the talent level afforded to us by Lowry, DeMar and JV and perhaps be a better team, would require a coaching change for that to actually happen though. I don't see how replacing DD with role players makes that any better or significantly improves the team.

DeMar could do a lot more in that system than just camp the corner. Idk if you think the 4 guys on the outside are just meant to stay out there parked on the three point line, there's supposed to be movement and having a guy who's dangerous as a penetrator off drives and pick and roll helps free up options for everybody else within that system or any other if used effectively.

I think the point your missing is the Raptors are already operating on a fringe right now. We're good but not great and the only way to get to that next level is to acquire a superstar or get one of the best coaches in the league to take over and implement his system. Again removing DD is not the solution it's just a grass is greener option being presented by people who have wanted the guy gone for years and still maintain that narrative despite him performing significantly better this year and in 2013-14 than he has in any other season of his career.

The most fundamental skill that all perimeter players need to have is perimeter shooting for the system though. Otherwise the defence collapses off one spot, negating the inside advantage and create fewer open opportunities as help rotates. You'd be giving the defence the first rotation for free essentially on every possession. DD's lack of 3 point shooting would reduce the overall effectiveness of the system. So why pay Demar at the higher rate when he doesn't fit?

Only once you have the spacing and the defence pressured can you use the other things. Without the fundamental space, nothing else matters.

Removing DD isn't the solution. That is true. Changing the system is. But when the solution doesn't require his skill sets and he's a free agent, you move on. We have the unique inside player to make this system work. Not many teams can run it. Our current team could run it at comparable success as the Magic did with Howard. That is a team that is capable of making deep playoff runs and by maintaining the cap flexibility, there will be more opportunities to improve the team. If DD was signed long term, you find a way to make it work (off the bench role as previously mentioned) but he isn't, so there's no need to overpay the man based on his success in Caseyball - which is specifically designed around DDs skill set. A system that takes advantage of the skills of 80% of the team vs the current system which takes advantage of 2 players. It's pretty obvious what would lead to more wins. DD isn't more valuable than 60% of a team; he isn't at that level like Durant.

[Axel]

Of the 12 wins we had in March & April, only 2 came against a team that wasn't in the lotto.

Of the 11 losses, at least 4 were vs lotto teams.

That was Demar's best stretch of basketball in his career.

[Joey]

Gentlemen, can we please try to avoid the "fanboy" and "hater" bullshit. I mean you guys spend enough time in this thread as it is, you'd think you'd have figured out a way to actually talk nice to each other after all this time. Geez Louise.

[JWash]

The most fundamental skill that all perimeter players need to have is perimeter shooting for the system though. Otherwise the defence collapses off one spot, negating the inside advantage and create fewer open opportunities as help rotates. You'd be giving the defence the first rotation for free essentially on every possession. DD's lack of 3 point shooting would reduce the overall effectiveness of the system. So why pay Demar at the higher rate when he doesn't fit?

Only once you have the spacing and the defence pressured can you use the other things. Without the fundamental space, nothing else matters.

Removing DD isn't the solution. That is true. Changing the system is. But when the solution doesn't require his skill sets and he's a free agent, you move on. We have the unique inside player to make this system work. Not many teams can run it. Our current team could run it at comparable success as the Magic did with Howard. That is a team that is capable of making deep playoff runs and by maintaining the cap flexibility, there will be more opportunities to improve the team. If DD was signed long term, you find a way to make it work (off the bench role as previously mentioned) but he isn't, so there's no need to overpay the man based on his success in Caseyball - which is specifically designed around DDs skill set. A system that takes advantage of the skills of 80% of the team vs the current system which takes advantage of 2 players. It's pretty obvious what would lead to more wins. DD isn't more valuable than 60% of a team; he isn't at that level like Durant.

"Defense collapses off one spot". If the defense is collapsing on one area that's freeing up another area and creating spacing on the floor. His lack of three point shooting wouldn't decrease the overall effectiveness because of how effective he is on the drive, P&R, post and could be off cuts and in transition. It would be another dynamic for the offense.

Also you're overrating Jonas right now, and I say that as someone who thinks Jonas is an all-star. The Magic were a good offensive team with that system, yes. But the main reason they were so good is because they were dominant defensively arguably even moreso than the Celtics in the same time period. That had a lot to do with Dwight Howard's ability to control the paint to a level we've only really seen from guys like Hakeem and Ben Wallace. He was an absolute force in Orlando on both sides of the ball but especially on the defensive end. Jonas is just not that player.

Bold: The way Casey plays is to just run his best players into the ground. Idk how the hell that's maximizing anybody asking them to go out there and play like superstars or else we lose.

[Axel]

"Defense collapses off one spot". If the defense is collapsing on one area that's freeing up another area and creating spacing on the floor. His lack of three point shooting wouldn't decrease the overall effectiveness because of how effective he is on the drive, P&R, post and could be off cuts and in transition. It would be another dynamic for the offense.

Also you're overrating Jonas right now, and I say that as someone who thinks Jonas is an all-star. The Magic were a good offensive team with that system, yes. But the main reason they were so good is because they were dominant defensively arguably even moreso than the Celtics in the same time period. That had a lot to do with Dwight Howard's ability to control the paint to a level we've only really seen from guys like Hakeem and Ben Wallace. He was an absolute force in Orlando on both sides of the ball but especially on the defensive end. Jonas is just not that player.

Bold: The way Casey plays is to just run his best players into the ground. Idk how the hell that's maximizing anybody asking them to go out there and play like superstars or else we lose.

If the defence collapses off of Demar, that puts more pressure on the inside before we even initiate the ball. So no, it doesn't create space. Swinging the ball to DD here just turns into DD shooting from the outside, which is neither his strength or the benefit of the offence.

Casey's offence is built around what DD does best; ball dominant without need for spacing, attacking without need for passing.

JV is a much better polished inside scorer than Drummond or Howard was. The offence would work. The defence may not be as elite, but Lowry and Carroll certainly sound like better defensive options than Jameer and Hedo.

[special1]

How about the 7-8 record in March when DD was putting up lines of 23.9, 6 & 4 including 45% from deep?

How about no help? No Lowry? Nothing.


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[slaw]

No it's not but when he was at his best, above career norms across the board, we were mediocre. That says a lot about his "star" candidacy.

I thought wins and losses were irrelevant to judging the quality of play/coaching, etc. For example, the Raptors have never won more games than under Dwane Casey but I have been told repeatedly that is irrelevant to judging Casey's coaching and, even more than that, not only does it not matter it is a completely invalid argument that doesn't even merit discussion. So, using that logic, why does whether the team wins or loses matter to judging Derozan's play? Shouldn't it be equally irrelevant and without merit?

[Axel]

I thought wins and losses were irrelevant to judging the quality of play/coaching, etc. For example, the Raptors have never won more games than under Dwane Casey but I have been told repeatedly that is irrelevant to judging Casey's coaching and, even more than that, not only does it not matter it is a completely invalid argument that doesn't even merit discussion. So, using that logic, why does whether the team wins or loses matter to judging Derozan's play? Shouldn't it be equally irrelevant and without merit?

Actually it was special1s point that used W/L, I was merely pointing out the error.

[special1]

No it's not but when he was at his best, above career norms across the board, we were mediocre. That says a lot about his "star" candidacy.

But we were mediocre when Lowry was at his best! What's with this double standard?


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[Axel]

But we were mediocre when Lowry was at his best! What's with this double standard?


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11-4 is mediocre? Since when?

Lowry's best month was December. DD didn't play that month and the team went 11-4.

Time to start fact checking mate.

[special1]

Actually it was special1s point that used W/L, I was merely pointing out the error.

A point you keep avoiding.

Lowry goes supernova and the team is mediocre. Demar has a great stretch and the team is mediocre.

Completely ignoring our coaching issues, holes in our roster, missing starters, etc.

It just seems a bit hypocritical and beneath us.


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[Just Is]

But we were mediocre when Lowry was at his best! What's with this double standard?


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Yeah, we weren't mediocre by any stretch of the imagination when Lowry was/is at his best. He really is THAT good. It's not even remotely a double standard. There was a column on the main site earlier this year that specifically highlighted this. I'll look for it later. It might also be in the Lowry thread.

When the exhaustion and injuries started to slow him down; we were still good. It wasn't until they became too much that mediocre would come into play and that was well after Demar came back.

That's actually what Demar has done better this year in comparison to years past; whether he performed well or not, impacted the game very little. It seems to have more impact this year (comparatively) but that might also just be the eye test (as Demar seems to be playing the best he's ever played this year even if he's starting to revert back to the Demar of old).

[Axel]

Yeah, we weren't mediocre by any stretch of the imagination when Lowry was/is at his best. He really is THAT good. It's not even remotely a double standard.

When the exhaustion and injuries started to slow him down; we were still good. It wasn't until they became too much that mediocre would come into play and that was well after Demar came back.

Lowry also hasn't been consistently awesome this year. Been a fair number of duds, so hard to correlate a stretch of games.

Single game example though, Lowry at his best and we almost beat the Warriors. DD at his best and we almost beat Denver.

[special1]

11-4 is mediocre? Since when?

Lowry's best month was December. DD didn't play that month and the team went 11-4.

Time to start fact checking mate.

Time to stop cherry picking mate.

12-10 without Demar and Lowry was voted starter 2 weeks after Demar came back.

Dude was playing very well up until his all-star selection.

By the way.... Since you clearly like to spin things your way. In your 11-4 example/sample

We had two wins over Denver (Lou Williams led the team in scoring in both games)

Two wins over New York (Lou Williams and TRoss led the team in scoring in those games)

Sacramento (Kyle Lowry led the team in scoring)
Indiana (no Paul George - Lou Williams led the team in scoring)
Utah (Kyle Lowry led the team in scoring)
Brooklyn (Kyle Lowry led the team in scoring)
Detroit (JV led the team in scoring)
Orlando (Lou Williams led the team in scoring)
Clippers (only legit playoff team - Kyle Lowry led the team in scoring)

Not exactly great teams during that span.....exactly two playoffs team (if you count Brooklyn when they barely scraped the 8th seed).

#justsayin


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