Everything Derozan

[JWash]

Lowry also hasn't been consistently awesome this year. Been a fair number of duds, so hard to correlate a stretch of games.

Single game example though, Lowry at his best and we almost beat the Warriors. DD at his best and we almost beat Denver.

DD at his best and we beat the Spurs

DD at his best and he outduels Durant and Westbrook down the stretch and we beat OKC.


You can't just pick and choose games to fit a narrative.

[special1]

Yeah, we weren't mediocre by any stretch of the imagination when Lowry was/is at his best. He really is THAT good. It's not even remotely a double standard. There was a column on the main site earlier this year that specifically highlighted this. I'll look for it later. It might also be in the Lowry thread.

When the exhaustion and injuries started to slow him down; we were still good. It wasn't until they became too much that mediocre would come into play and that was well after Demar came back.

That's actually what Demar has done better this year in comparison to years past; whether he performed well or not, impacted the game very little. It seems to have more impact this year (comparatively) but that might also just be the eye test (as Demar seems to be playing the best he's ever played this year even if he's starting to revert back to the Demar of old).

Team record says we were mediocre. You posted nothing to the contrary.


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[special1]

Lowry also hasn't been consistently awesome this year. Been a fair number of duds, so hard to correlate a stretch of games.

Single game example though, Lowry at his best and we almost beat the Warriors. DD at his best and we almost beat Denver.

Demar at his best and we beat San Antonio.... We can play this game forever.


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[A.I]

Lowry's WS48 last season and this season: .141 and .209
DD's WS48 last season and this season: .090 (below league average) and .159

Lowry is better and far more important than DD for this team.

Last season DD missed 21 games, Raptors went 12-9, had a 6 game win streak at one point. Lowry missed games late in the season, Raptors went 6-6 (With wins aganst Philly and NYK).

[JWash]

Lowry's WS48 last season and this season: .141 and .209
DD's WS48 last season and this season: .090 (below league average) and .159

Lowry is better and far more important than DD for this team.

Last season DD missed 21 games, Raptors went 12-9, had a 6 game win streak at one point. Lowry missed games late in the season, Raptors went 6-6 (With wins aganst Philly and NYK).

Nobody is arguing that DeRozan is more important than Lowry.

We're arguing that DeRozan is not a replacement level player, he is playing like one of the best scorers in the NBA. His impact this year as you just pointed out is actually higher than Lowry's was last season. So obviously he's not out there doing things that can easily be replaced by role players.

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

Lowry's WS48 last season and this season: .141 and .209
DD's WS48 last season and this season: .090 (below league average) and .159

Lowry is better and far more important than DD for this team.

Last season DD missed 21 games, Raptors went 12-9, had a 6 game win streak at one point. Lowry missed games late in the season, Raptors went 6-6 (With wins aganst Philly and NYK).

Sigh.

The 6 game stretch you're talking about:

We beat New York twice (didn't make the playoffs)

Indiana (no Paul George - they didn't make the playoffs)

Brooklyn (they sucked and barely made 8th seed)

Orlando (didn't make the playoffs)

Detroit (didn't make the playoffs)

Like I don't understand you guys. Why this double standard? At least be consistent.



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[JWash]

Sigh.

The 6 game stretch your talking about:

We beat New York twice (didn't make the playoffs)

Indiana (no Paul George - they didn't make the playoffs)

Brooklyn (they sucked and barely made 8th seed)

Orlando (didn't make the playoffs)

Detroit (didn't make the playoffs)

Like I don't understand you guys. Why this double standard?



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Because people want DeRozan off the team. It's been this way among the anti-DeMar camp with the Raptors for years, every year there's a new reason

3rd season: He's not improving trade him while his value is high
4th season: BC overpaid him, trade him while we still can!
5th season: Wow, he got a fake all-star appearance, trade him while his value is high
6th season: Regressed, trade him before his value drops more!
7th season: Near-elite offensive production, let him walk in FA to sign role players to improve the team.

Personally I'm looking forwards to a 40 year old DeRozan with a bad back playing an old man's game with the Raptors in his final season lol

[A.I]

Sigh.

The 6 game stretch you're talking about:

We beat New York twice (didn't make the playoffs)

Indiana (no Paul George - they didn't make the playoffs)

Brooklyn (they sucked and barely made 8th seed)

Orlando (didn't make the playoffs)

Detroit (didn't make the playoffs)

Like I don't understand you guys. Why this double standard? At least be consistent.



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You ignored the first part of my post.

Still went 12-9.

Raptors faced NYK, PHI, CLE, CHI, NYK, CHI, LAL, HOU, MIN, BRK, BOS and CHO. Basically similar teams when DD missed games.

The bolded ones are the terrible teams.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Nobody is arguing that DeRozan is more important than Lowry.

We're arguing that DeRozan is not a replacement level player, he is playing like one of the best scorers in the NBA. His impact this year as you just pointed out is actually higher than Lowry's was last season. So obviously he's not out there doing things that can easily be replaced by role players.

Looking through this thread today, you're the only poster on either side of the debate that keeps throwing out terms like "replacement level player" and "role players", in reference to what the other 'side' is thinking about.

I haven't seen anybody on the anti-DeRozan side suggest anything more detailed then a consideration that $25M could be more effectively spent (ie: on a replacement for DeRozan and an upgrade at PF - doesn't automatically mean two $12.5M players) than just on a DeRozan extension. Nobody has suggested that 2 "role players" are better than DeRozan - that's just your attempt to frame the debate so that no real constructive discussion can be had.

Personally, I don't think either DeRozan or Lowry impact that game as much as their biggest fans would like to believe. I think that Casey's 'offense' inflates their perceived impact, largely due to the unlimited role they're allowed to play. Lowry offers good value on his current contract, but if it was him looking for a $20M+ extension this offseason, I think we'd see the same sort of debate being played out (it's not just DeRozan-hate).

[JWash]

You ignored the first part of my post.

Still went 12-9.

Raptors faced NYK, PHI, CLE, CHI, NYK, CHI, LAL, HOU, MIN, BRK, BOS and CHO. Basically similar teams when DD missed games.

The bolded ones are the terrible teams.

Here's a comparison I'd use for the whole Lowry-DD dynamic.

Lebron James and Kyrie Irving. Take Kyrie off the Cavs and they're still good (as you can see they're 1st in the east) but not quite as good as they could be because LeBron has to carry more of the offensive load than necessary. Take LeBron off and they're quite a bit worse, probably in the 5-6 seed range as opposed to #1. That doesn't mean Kyrie is a player you can just let walk and replace with role players, it just means that LeBron is the highest impact guy on the roster.

This is even more true for the Raptors because Kyle is nowhere near as good as LeBron.

[special1]

Everything Demar Derozan

You ignored the first part of my post.

Still went 12-9.

Raptors faced NYK, PHI, CLE, CHI, NYK, CHI, LAL, HOU, MIN, BRK, BOS and CHO. Basically similar teams when DD missed games.

The bolded ones are the terrible teams.

The only good team we beat was The clippers. What is your point exactly?

How is this not proving my point of us being mediocre, even with Lowry going supernova??



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[CalgaryRapsFan]

Here's a comparison I'd use for the whole Lowry-DD dynamic.

Lebron James and Kyrie Irving. Take Kyrie off the Cavs and they're still good (as you can see they're 1st in the east) but not quite as good as they could be because LeBron has to carry more of the offensive load than necessary. Take LeBron off and they're quite a bit worse, probably in the 5-6 seed range as opposed to #1. That doesn't mean Kyrie is a player you can just let walk and replace with role players, it just means that LeBron is the highest impact guy on the roster.

This is even more true for the Raptors because Kyle is nowhere near as good as LeBron.

None of us can do a comparison without knowing how DeRozan's extension money would be spent, along with any subsequent roster moves that would be made. Also, nobody is suggesting that DeRozan gets replaced with "role players", except you.

[JWash]

Looking through this thread today, you're the only poster on either side of the debate that keeps throwing out terms like "replacement level player" and "role players", in reference to what the other 'side' is thinking about.

I'm using the term replacement level player to mean a player that can easily be replaced with little to no adverse affect to the team. I'm not quoting anybody and I'm not putting it in quotations to indicate that I am... As for role players, that's what you get with $10-15M nowadays. Carroll cost $15M per year, Ross was $11M per year. It's a totally new market in the NBA.

I haven't seen anybody on the anti-DeRozan side suggest anything more detailed then a consideration that $25M could be more effectively spent (ie: on a replacement for DeRozan and an upgrade at PF - doesn't automatically mean two $12.5M players) than just on a DeRozan extension. Nobody has suggested that 2 "role players" are better than DeRozan - that's just your attempt to frame the debate so that no real constructive discussion can be had.

CRF... this is exactly what is being suggested though. I say role players because the names that have been suggested such as Gerald Henderson, Afflalo, Faried, Marvin Williams, etc are role players are they not? I'm not just making it up and arbitrarily assigning a label, that's what those guys are... I'm not trying to frame anything those are the names that were brought up when Joey asked for suggestions on who could be signed for $20M+

Personally, I don't think either DeRozan or Lowry impact that game as much as their biggest fans would like to believe. I think that Casey's 'offense' inflates their perceived impact, largely due to the unlimited role they're allowed to play. Lowry offers good value on his current contract, but if it was him looking for a $20M+ extension this offseason, I think we'd see the same sort of debate being played out (it's not just DeRozan-hate).

Then how are we ever going to keep any good players? Or can you only pay money out to superstars?

[tDotted]

You ignored the first part of my post.

Still went 12-9.

Raptors faced NYK, PHI, CLE, CHI, NYK, CHI, LAL, HOU, MIN, BRK, BOS and CHO. Basically similar teams when DD missed games.

The bolded ones are the terrible teams.

BOS and CHO are far from terrible.

[A.I]

The only good team we beat was The clippers. What is your point exactly?

How is this not proving my point of us being mediocre with Lowry going supernova??



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Lol what? We played the Cavs twice, the Bulls, Blazers, Warriors and Clippers when DD was out. The first 12 games (just to be fair), we played the Cavs twice and the Bulls.