Everything Derozan

[JWash]

I feel like I've said exactly this several times in the last 24 hours.

It's not about replacing Demar it's about getting a system that works for the other 14 guys on the roster.

The system we play right now doesn't maximize anyone on our roster. It may make their boxscore stats look better but asking non-superstars to handle superstar level responsibility is going to do damage to their efficiency.

Wouldn't Lowry love to have more space to operate with the ball zipping around and defenses being off balance rather than having to basically be Steph-lite out there? Wouldn't DeMar rather be catching the ball on the move out of a set with 1 man to beat going to the rim, rather than trying to beat his man starting from 20 feet out and then finish in traffic over multiple defenders?

Extreme example but that's why top players love playing for Team USA (especially the modern version that plays a team game not that early 2000s Iverson Starbury nonsense). They can just do their thing and they don't have to carry because the ball is moving and guys are getting clean looks.

[tDotted]

They don't mean this season. They're rehashing last season which is how a thread gets to be 700 pages plus.

Goodness.. lol well Boston was good last season too

[raptors999]

If we replace DeRozan with Horford or Batum this offseason you won't see much of a complaint for me. Although it would be somewhat lateral with the latter.

However we can't actually do that without making a move, because even if we let DD walk we'd be short about 10M necessary to make a max offer. Of course you could package Ross in a sign and trade, just saying it wouldn't be a straight up signing is all.

Just a note that Horford and Batum are going to get paid as much if not more (in Horford's case almost certainly more) than DeRozan in the offseason. And I could also make the point that DeRozan has been better than both of them this year (has them beat in WS, WS/48, PER, netRTG etc and is only slightly less efficient scoring than both while handling a much larger usage).

There are more offensively capable SG than versatile two way PF in the league. Horford adds a lot more than just PPG. Martin + Horford or Ross + Horford is better than Demar and no PF

[Axel]

The system we play right now doesn't maximize anyone on our roster. It may make their boxscore stats look better but asking non-superstars to handle superstar level responsibility is going to do damage to their efficiency.

Wouldn't Lowry love to have more space to operate with the ball zipping around and defenses being off balance rather than having to basically be Steph-lite out there? Wouldn't DeMar rather be catching the ball on the move out of a set with 1 man to beat going to the rim, rather than trying to beat his man starting from 20 feet out and then finish in traffic over multiple defenders?

Extreme example but that's why top players love playing for Team USA (especially the modern version that plays a team game not that early 2000s Iverson Starbury nonsense). They can just do their thing and they don't have to carry because the ball is moving and guys are getting clean looks.

Simply put, I don't think Demar's skills are transferable to another offensive system at a rate that is worth what he is likely going to be paid.

[Primer]

There are more offensively capable SG than versatile two way PF in the league. Horford adds a lot more than just PPG. Martin + Horford or Ross + Horford is better than Demar and no PF

I think most posters would rather have Horford on the team than Derozan, but it's way way easier to keep Derozan than to add Horford. Not to mention that Horford is probably perfectly happy being the star on a great team with a great coach, so I don't see how we make a compelling argument for him to come over to Toronto. I think you resign Derozan and trade him later if you find a deal that makes sense. He's playing so good this year that you can't just let him walk, and his trade value is extremely limited because of his contract being up at seasons end. Derozan on a 4 year deal after the best season of his career is a very valuable trade piece. Durant will probably do a one year deal with OKC to line his contract up with Westbrook and Ibaka, so we won't even miss out on the Durant sweepstakes.

[Snooch]

I'm using the term replacement level player to mean a player that can easily be replaced with little to no adverse affect to the team. I'm not quoting anybody and I'm not putting it in quotations to indicate that I am... As for role players, that's what you get with $10-15M nowadays. Carroll cost $15M per year, Ross was $11M per year. It's a totally new market in the NBA.



CRF... this is exactly what is being suggested though. I say role players because the names that have been suggested such as Gerald Henderson, Afflalo, Faried, Marvin Williams, etc are role players are they not? I'm not just making it up and arbitrarily assigning a label, that's what those guys are... I'm not trying to frame anything those are the names that were brought up when Joey asked for suggestions on who could be signed for $20M+



Then how are we ever going to keep any good players? Or can you only pay money out to superstars?

Some of the guys listed are either
A) more than role players...even though you say otherwise
B) some of those guys would produce more with an increased role.

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[Snooch]

CRF please go back and look at the names that were thrown out as possible 2 for 1 replacements for DD's 20M+ contract that he's likely to get and tell me which ones of them aren't role players. I just say "role players" so I don't have to repeat the list of names that were brought up over and over again. I'm not trying to create a strawman or ruin the discussion, I'm debating what people are using as talking points. I want a good discussion.

Of course there are other options, but they're limited. If you're trying to redistribute DeMar's 20-25M, you could also pay one guy 15-20M and one 5M, but that 15-20M itself is an awkward range. Because it doesn't get you the elite guys like Horford, Batum, Durant, etc so it's likely a range where you're spending a bit more than necessary to get a decent/good starter and then the other guy would be bench caliber or near the end of his career (like a Scola).

You consitantly change the debate and backpeddle off of it with statements such as

"Using word role players in place of the names given" knowing full well the term roleplayers connetations

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[Barolt]

I'm using the term replacement level player to mean a player that can easily be replaced with little to no adverse affect to the team. I'm not quoting anybody and I'm not putting it in quotations to indicate that I am... As for role players, that's what you get with $10-15M nowadays. Carroll cost $15M per year, Ross was $11M per year. It's a totally new market in the NBA.



CRF... this is exactly what is being suggested though. I say role players because the names that have been suggested such as Gerald Henderson, Afflalo, Faried, Marvin Williams, etc are role players are they not? I'm not just making it up and arbitrarily assigning a label, that's what those guys are... I'm not trying to frame anything those are the names that were brought up when Joey asked for suggestions on who could be signed for $20M+



Then how are we ever going to keep any good players? Or can you only pay money out to superstars?

It amuses me that you used the term replacement level player, then that list of names, because we actually have a stat that tracks value over replacement player. In this stat, so far this season, DeMar is +0.8. He's only been better than +1 VORP one season in his career.

Afflalo's been better than +1 3 times, Faried's never finished a season below +1, Marvin Williams has been better than +1 4 seasons, and has the same VORP as DeMar so far this year.

Not saying those guys are as good as DeMar, because they aren't, but they aren't 'replacement level' players either. Those guys have all been key parts of good teams that have won playoff series, something DeMar has never done(exception being Henderson).

[JWash]

Simply put, I don't think Demar's skills are transferable to another offensive system at a rate that is worth what he is likely going to be paid.

That's fine, that's just guess work there's not really any empirical evidence to support that claim. I disagree.

[hotfuzz]

Man this thread is a disaster

[special1]

Lol what? We played the Cavs twice, the Bulls, Blazers, Warriors and Clippers when DD was out. The first 12 games (just to be fair), we played the Cavs twice and the Bulls.

I said the only good team we beat... Did we beat any of those teams you just listed??


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[Snooch]

Well, in fairness, there's a fairly obvious reason why no "anti-Derozan" poster is throwing around terms like "replacement level player" and "role player" even though it's pretty clear that those are the players available at the applicable price point.

So, JWash isn't framing any debate to shut down constructive discussion, he's just being honest about what replacing Derozan with two players really means.

Frankly, I'm not sure why you object. If Derozan has much less impact on the game as you claim (or as many on here claim is a detriment to the team), then adding two replacement level players shouldn't matter all that much and, in fact, should help. So, why the hesitation to be honest about the kinds of players that would be added?

There is a distinct connotation to the term role player and being a player who can only do a limited amount of things.

So if we are to accept that new players in place of demar are roll players then you must accept that demar is a role playet

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[Snooch]

First bold: That is not what I've said. People have suggested splitting the DD money amongst two players (replacing DD with a worse SG and getting a better PF), the problem with that is that the only PF on the market who's a definitively higher impact guy than DD is Horford. The other problem, which I haven't even bothered to get into yet is that even if we let DD walk we only actually have 15M to spend not 25M. That gets you a DeMarre Carroll level guy and nothing else.

Second Bold: If you can get me a trade where we deal DeRozan for an equal caliber guy at PF i'm all for it. If I could trade DD for Ibaka or Favors or whoever right now I'd do it. The problem is that is unlikely to happen and even if it did it'd open up a new hole at the SG position and (assuming the guy we trade DD for is making 15M or more which would likely be the case) we'd have no cap space to address it.

The first paragraph is more wrong generalizations.

It was originally positioned as one of many options in counter to "we have to resign Demar" posts

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[Snooch]

But CRF what was being suggested wasn't DeRozan trades. It was letting DeRozan walk and using the 25M on someone else (even though we'd only actually have 15M to spend).

If we could trade DeRozan for a guy worth 15-20M at PF and a good prospect at the SG position I'd be all for it. But where would that trade even be available? And why would a team deal players of that value to rent DD for 50 something games?

And I'm not considering any future without DeRozan to be one filled with role players. I was specifically referring to the suggestion of replacing DD with role players like Henderson, Marvin Williams, etc which quite frankly is a horrible idea.

If someone has a plan in place where we could jettison DD in FA, miss out on KD/Horford/Batum and sign a PF who's as good or better than DD at the same position and land ourselves a top prospect I'm all for it. But that's not what's been suggested.

no that wasnt what was being suggested.

That is what you are trying to make the suggestion be.



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[slaw]

There is a distinct connotation to the term role player and being a player who can only do a limited amount of things.

So if we are to accept that new players in place of demar are roll players then you must accept that demar is a role playet

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Well, actually, I don't have to accept anything of the sort. And I don't.