Everything Derozan

[JWash]

Just want to clarify, I have no problem with saying that DeMar is a very good player this year. Like I said, top 30 NBA talent, top 20 offensively in my mind. I just don't think he's top 6 like Golden's list makes him look. By the way, by 'Golden's rule', neither of Steve Nash's MVP seasons was an 'elite offensive' season.

From what I understand it's not a rule. I think he's just saying that you're an elite offensive player if you're on that list, but just because you're not on it doesn't mean you aren't one. Obviously there are other ways of measuring elite offense, this is just one way of looking at it. I think you're getting bogged down in the top 6 thing or whatever, he's not trying to say DeRozan is the 6th best offensive player in the league.

[Barolt]

From what I understand it's not a rule. I think he's just saying that you're an elite offensive player if you're on that list, but just because you're not on it doesn't mean you aren't one. Obviously there are other ways of measuring elite offense, this is just one way of looking at it. I think you're getting bogged down in the top 6 thing or whatever, he's not trying to say DeRozan is the 6th best offensive player in the league.

Well then let's talk about the actual stats, not make arbitrary lists. Like I said, top 30 PER, top 40 WS/48, top 40 OBPM are very good numbers.

[JWash]

Well then let's talk about the actual stats, not make arbitrary lists. Like I said, top 30 PER, top 40 WS/48, top 40 OBPM are very good numbers.

He was using actual stats... And it's not an arbitrary list, the standard he used was pretty logical because he's accounting for the fact that it does become harder to maintain a high oRTG and high USG% in a starter's role.

[slaw]

Indeed.

Which also debunks one of the classic DeRozan excuses/justifications of his work ethic and time in the gym.

I wish I could find those Masai quotes.

No doubt in my mind (read: my opinion) he had some sort of epiphany or awakening this offseason or training camp.

He is likely to profit handsomely because of it..... well, more handsomely, he was already going to get a king's ransom.

Again, there was a fairly dramatic change to Derozan's game in his all-star season in two categories: getting to the line and AST%. That was the big course correction. What has happened since is a gradual improvement his decision-making and playmaking over the last 2 1/2 seasons, which has had its highs and lows (not everything is done in a straight line or happens over night) but is more noticeable this year as his FG% is back above his career average, as opposed to last season's disastrous shooting campaign, and the combined effect has him playing more efficient basketball.

Whether it is sustainable over 82 games is another question.

[Barolt]

He was using actual stats... And it's not an arbitrary list, the standard he used was pretty logical because he's accounting for the fact that it does become harder to maintain a high oRTG and high USG% in a starter's role.

It is an arbitrary list though, and he was saying that's the 'elite offensive' list, when it's quite clear that you can be elite offensively and not be on that list.

Corey Maggette's 2008-09 season in which he had .100 WS/48 and a 16.9 PER would qualify for Golden's list. Steve Nash's 2006-07 season in which he had a 65.4 TS%, .225 WS/48, and a 124 Ortg and won MVP would not qualify. It's a COMPLETELY arbitrary list.

[mcHAPPY]

Again, there was a fairly dramatic change to Derozan's game in his all-star season in two categories: getting to the line and AST%. That was the big course correction. What has happened since is a gradual improvement his decision-making and playmaking over the last 2 1/2 seasons, which has had its highs and lows (not everything is done in a straight line or happens over night) but is more noticeable this year as his FG% is back above his career average, as opposed to last season's disastrous shooting campaign, and the combined effect has him playing more efficient basketball.

Whether it is sustainable over 82 games is another question.

I don't agree it has been a gradual improvement.

I believe he improved leaps and bounds in his All-Star season, then declined in 2014-15, and has now taken another leap forward not only from last season but over his all-star season as well.

                                   

Season     PER  TS%  FTr AST% WS/48

2010-11   14.5 .530 .348  8.6  .055

2011-12   12.8 .503 .367 10.8  .054

2012-13   14.7 .523 .347 12.0  .075

2013-14   18.4 .532 .448 18.9  .141

2014-15   17.4 .510 .438 17.0  .090

2015-16   21.0 .547 .496 21.6  .163

[mcHAPPY]

I think DeRozan has improved his skills significantly over the years, although i don't think there was much improvement in regards to an understanding of how to use those skills correctly until now.

This is why I thought DD would not make the jump we've seen this year until he got a new coach, because it's hard for a player to just break habits that have been developed over 6 years. Even still I was an advocate of keeping him since Casey is hopefully not going to be a permanent fixture behind our bench. I think with an even better coach there are further steps he can take such as utilizing the corner 3 more, further developing his play-making and being more aggressive as a rebounder.

To suggest that he hasn't improved in skill is simply incorrect though. Things like ball-handling, passing, etc are at new heights.

DD has improved his skills from his rookie through 3rd year year, no doubt.

I don't believe there is a significant jump from year 5 to year 7.

He is playing more intelligent and making better decisions.

[JWash]

DD has improved his skills from his rookie through 3rd year year, no doubt.

I don't believe there is a significant jump from year 5 to year 7.

He is playing more intelligent and making better decisions.

I disagree but that's fine.

[Barolt]

I disagree but that's fine.

I'm sort of in between. The improvement in decision making has been in leaps and bounds, especially in the last two weeks. Being more decisive makes his entire skillset more valuable. When he would stop, hold the ball for a few seconds, then make his move it allowed the defense to settle in.

Now, especially in the last few games, he's making his move on catch, which keeps the defense unsettled and allows the off-ball movement of teammates to be much more valuable. His game in his early years relied too much on his athleticism alone.

He's not a good outside shooter, but his decision making, vision and passing are progressing to the point where his lack of shooting doesn't hurt us nearly as much.(except, in my opinion, when he's on the floor with JJ and Biz, in which case there isn't enough shooting on the floor to create any space for anyone)

[psrs1]

It is a possibility.

Consistency over 82 has always been a weakness.

But I really hope he has turned the corner.

I think he has. There are still several issues moving forward--
1. Consistency over 82 games
2. Playoff performance and adjust musts when things are taken away by opponents D
3. Post-payday level of motivation
4. Post -payday level of effort
5. Post-payday consistency.

He seems to have the work effort and mental toughness to manage these areas of concerns. Unlike the mental make-up of TR.

[Wild-ling#1]

I'm sort of in between. The improvement in decision making has been in leaps and bounds, especially in the last two weeks. Being more decisive makes his entire skillset more valuable. When he would stop, hold the ball for a few seconds, then make his move it allowed the defense to settle in.

Now, especially in the last few games, he's making his move on catch, which keeps the defense unsettled and allows the off-ball movement of teammates to be much more valuable. His game in his early years relied too much on his athleticism alone.

He's not a good outside shooter, but his decision making, vision and passing are progressing to the point where his lack of shooting doesn't hurt us nearly as much.(except, in my opinion, when he's on the floor with JJ and Biz, in which case there isn't enough shooting on the floor to create any space for anyone)

Still think he's not gonna find the three?

Not sure why, exactly, but I really thought it might come (maybe next year - I was ok with that) ... but I'm more inclined to take that bet now. I think he's going to keep at it, slowly, but surely, until the playoffs roll around ...

It's one way to put some distance between him and the legend of - wait for it - Dwayne Wade (!)

[Barolt]

Still think he's not gonna find the three?

Not sure why, exactly, but I lawys thought it might come (maybe next year - I was ok with that) but I'm more inclined to take that bet now. I think he's going to keep at it, slowly, but surely, until the playoffs roll around ...

It's one way to put some distance between him and the legend of - wait for it - Dwayne Wade (!)

It's a pipe dream to think that DeMar will ever be on Wade's level.

On the three point shot, I don't think he's going to develop it, but personally I don't think he should even work on it at this point. His midrange and above the break 3 is so far below average that it would be a herculean task just to make it average.

Instead, he should focus his training on being able to read the defense, and making the correct passes once he gets into the lane. He still has 2-3 plays per game where he gets into traffic, gets in the air, and then realizes he doesn't have a shot and tries to find a pass, which results in him throwing it away. These are situations he can still improve.(In the Dallas game, you can see a LOT of these plays)

Also, he can work on what Kobe did in his early 30s when his athleticism started to slip, developing that post-up and 10-15 foot game. If he can work on his footwork in those situations to the point where he can create those free throw line jumpers that Kobe excelled at, he can become a much bigger threat on elbow catches, which creates his own shot as well as a passing threat for both JV in the post, as well as for the shooters in the corners.

DeMar doesn't yet make his teammates a lot better, you can see this by looking at the chart I posted a page or two back for his impact on guys' TS%. As his decision making continues to improve, he could become really good at putting other guys in a position to excel. I'd much rather see him do that, then see him try to bring his midrange and above the break 3 game up to average, which is a long road from where he is now.

[golden]

110 Ortg and 25 MPG totally is, 25% usage isn't. You can be elite offensively without creating the shots yourself. Magic Johnson only broke 25% usage rate ONCE in his career. John Stockton never did. You gonna tell me those guys weren't elite offensively?

I think you're getting hung up on who doesn't make the list vs. focusing on being on the list.

Ok, so let's lower the criteria to > 23 USG & > 108 ORTG to add guys who might be unfairly excluded due to the arbitrary cutoffs. But we'll also be adding some less deserving players (especially USG wise). Anything lower than that is starting to approach an average player, by definition. There are still only 20 or so players on the list this season.

And yes, high assist players who rely on others to score aren't doing the actual scoring, so I would classify Stockton and Magic are elite passers offensively, but not elite scorers, so maybe we need to make that new distinction, if that helps. And fwiw, Stockton and Magic had elite scorers to finish those passes.

Sorted by USG. Demar is 8th.



Sorted by ORTG. Demar is 15th.


Again, any way you slice it, he's in the conversation with the elite offensive players (scorers) in the league. But more importantly, there aren't many players who are ahead of him when you factor in BOTH categories together.

[Barolt]

Again, Golden, I think you're getting too hung up on making a list. I agree that DeMar is good, but I don't think he's top 10 in the league. I think that's a stretch. I think top 20 offensively, top 30 overall is realistically where he is. I think what he needs to improve isn't his usage of creating his own offense, it's how he makes the rest of the team better offensively.

I want DeMar to be a better team player, because he's already a good player himself.

[planetmars]

I'd love DD to develop a 3pt shot.. or at least have confidence in it. He's capable.. has a really good free throw percentage. Has confidence in his pull up jumper (even though he's inefficient).

3 point shooting requires confidence and a lot of repetition. He's not confident with it at all.. and he's got a bit of a hitch on his shot that throws it off. Not sure what it would take but he needs to want to become a better 3pt shooter. Would totally help him turn that corner from all-star to all-nba... so it would be worth it for him to keep working on it.