Jack Armstrong: Gay/DD are NOT selfish players

[qb5PHILA@hotmail.com]

As a fervent Derozan supporter for the past 4 years, I have literally no excuses and am absolutely appalled by his recent performance. I don't think even those that wanted him traded could have expected him to fall off this badly. That being said, I think I want to see a bit more of a sample size before I positively say that the raptors should trade him as I do think that he is a very solid player. But overall, apart from a couple of games this year, I am absolutely disgusted by his performance.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

As a fervent Derozan supporter for the past 4 years, I have literally no excuses and am absolutely appalled by his recent performance. I don't think even those that wanted him traded could have expected him to fall off this badly. That being said, I think I want to see a bit more of a sample size before I positively say that the raptors should trade him as I do think that he is a very solid player. But overall, apart from a couple of games this year, I am absolutely disgusted by his performance.

As somebody pushing for a DeRozan trade since last season, I completely agree with the bold. After the preseason he had, with an emphasis on getting to the hoop, posting-up and 3pt shooting, I was gearing myself up to deal with all the "I told you so" comments. I was cautiously optimistic (damn Raptor hope!) that he would, in fact, turn a significant corner and reach that next tier of NBA talent.

The biggest issue for me isn't even the shooting percentages; I've had him labeled as a high-volume low-efficiency scorer for years. The biggest issue I have is how he seems to have completely abandoned the post-up game and has reverted to his old self (ie: weak drives, hoping for refs to bail him out, tunnel-vision) so quickly. Some of that is absolutely on DC and his play calling, whether specifically called by him, somebody else on his coaching staff or the PG he has on the court.

At this point all I can do is shake my head at DeRozan (and Gay & Lowry). It's beyond arguing the pros/cons of these players. I think this roster needs to be blown up (at trade deadline and/or in offseason) and a new head coach needs to be brought in (in the offseason, after the draft), to breathe new life into this stagnant franchise and truly instill a fresh culture under TL/MU.

[slaw]

As a fervent Derozan supporter for the past 4 years, I have literally no excuses and am absolutely appalled by his recent performance. I don't think even those that wanted him traded could have expected him to fall off this badly. That being said, I think I want to see a bit more of a sample size before I positively say that the raptors should trade him as I do think that he is a very solid player. But overall, apart from a couple of games this year, I am absolutely disgusted by his performance.

I wasn't necessarily believer but I was not a naysayer until his third year. HIs first year, he showed improvement after the midway point. His second season, he was a completely different player. At that point, I still had hope. But he just stagnated his third year, basically in every facet. That was when I resigned myself to the Derozan we have now.

It also should be pointed out that I don't think the environment here in Toronto has helped Demar. And now, as he watches Rudy chuck with impunity, you know he is going to do the same thing.

[psrs1]

He's young.
He's "improving"
He loves Toronto
He's a gym rat
He has "potential"
He gets no respect from the refs
He wants to win
He's not paid like a superstar

I think I covered everything....

I love the 'potential' quote.

[psrs1]

There's one I saw in the chat last night that applies to the whole team as well: Casey is such a terrible coach he's sabotaging the entire roster.

I know it drives me crazy....I wish Masai would just fire him already.

[psrs1]

As a fervent Derozan supporter for the past 4 years, I have literally no excuses and am absolutely appalled by his recent performance. I don't think even those that wanted him traded could have expected him to fall off this badly. That being said, I think I want to see a bit more of a sample size before I positively say that the raptors should trade him as I do think that he is a very solid player. But overall, apart from a couple of games this year, I am absolutely disgusted by his performance.

Good post. On the money. We all want DD to succeed but he really isn't that good.

[white men can't jump]

I think it's at least partly on DC and his stupid "role cards". Gay & DeRozan have scorer cards, so all the non-scorers have to defer to them. Of course, when you give inefficient chuckers the green light, you're bound to get games like last night.

Bad coaching + bad players = bad team

I just hope MU has been watching and has seen enough. I'm not sure what else he could possibly be waiting for at this point.

Umm...how about the Dec 15 deadline to pass so all players under contract become eligible for trades? MU won't do anything until he feels he can maximize value, and we all know he's patient enough to wait at least that long, even if it's just to be able to discuss a handful of players.

As for coaching, I figure MU won't make a change there until he begins reshaping the roster. But who knows, if he keeps watching this he may lose patience.

As for the thread...I agree with those who think it's mainly a problem of low ball IQ and poor coaching. Maybe the guys are a bit selfish, but that's pretty natural for guys who are (or think they are) scorers. I think the other things factor more when considering why the problem continues, since it's totally fixable to teach them to at least pass up some bad shots to pass the ball.

[Doc]

Physically DeMar is there, but for me I've always perceived him lacking on the mental side of basketball. Example, generally when you notice something not working, you normally make the changes to overcome it or at least attempt too. I've yet to see that growth in him. Or at least not where he should be by now. Not implying he's dumb by any means, but something is missing for me.

[ebrian]

How much more sample size is needed? 13 games?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

How much more sample size is needed? 13 games?

Well Bargnani got 7 seasons, so.... trade deadline??

[Axel]

As somebody pushing for a DeRozan trade since last season, I completely agree with the bold. After the preseason he had, with an emphasis on getting to the hoop, posting-up and 3pt shooting, I was gearing myself up to deal with all the "I told you so" comments. I was cautiously optimistic (damn Raptor hope!) that he would, in fact, turn a significant corner and reach that next tier of NBA talent.

The biggest issue for me isn't even the shooting percentages; I've had him labeled as a high-volume low-efficiency scorer for years. The biggest issue I have is how he seems to have completely abandoned the post-up game and has reverted to his old self (ie: weak drives, hoping for refs to bail him out, tunnel-vision) so quickly. Some of that is absolutely on DC and his play calling, whether specifically called by him, somebody else on his coaching staff or the PG he has on the court.

At this point all I can do is shake my head at DeRozan (and Gay & Lowry). It's beyond arguing the pros/cons of these players. I think this roster needs to be blown up (at trade deadline and/or in offseason) and a new head coach needs to be brought in (in the offseason, after the draft), to breathe new life into this stagnant franchise and truly instill a fresh culture under TL/MU.

Perfectly said.

His play, sadly, reminds me of VC in his pouting days before he got moved to Jersey.

Not a wide open dunk opportunity? Better pull-up and fade away from contact. What?! No call!? But ref, I jumped and everything!!!

[qb5PHILA@hotmail.com]

It's nice to see you not making excuses, but I really don't know what a very solid player is, in specific, concrete terms.

To me, ideally Demar is scoring 17-18 a night with 4 boards and 4 assists and shooting something like a 45/32/84 split with average defense which I think is entirely within reason. However, until we run more of our offense through our bigs and rid ourself of Rudy Gay, this type of offensive production will more than likely not happen.

PS When I say we should rid ourself of Rudy Gay, it's because with him here he automatically gives the team a ceiling and is a ball stopper by nature whereas I think that Demar could very well operate as more of a finisher with occasional isos and postups in an offense centred around Val and Amir's inside play.

[qb5PHILA@hotmail.com]

How much more sample size is needed? 13 games?

Mid-late december

[KeonClark]

Selfish player is not the same as selfish person. Allen Iverson was both. I don't think these guys are both.

Part of being a high IQ player is recognizing not just what the offence/defence is doing but recognizing the "optimal opportunity" to score. Gay and DD don't recognize when other players are in a better position to score, part of that is their "scorer" mentality. You can get away with that and you are Kobe because, chances are, a contested Kobe shot is still better than some of his teammates in years past (think the pre-Gasol years).

Gay and Demar simply believe they are better than they are. Does that make them selfish or just un-aware? I dunno, it's relatively semantic at this point, but neither player plays a great team offence, so for the purposes of basketball, I would label them somewhat as selfish players. Demar less so than Gay. Being a ball stopper and waving off teammates in good position so you can iso, is a selfish move.

The frustrating part for me is that if they just moved the ball and let the rolling bigs get some touches, the defence would open up more for Gay and Demar, making it easier for them to score. It's like Chinese finger-cuffs, the more you force it, the worse it gets. If you let up and let things be more natural, it becomes much easier to succeed.

Exactly, that's what I don't understand. By being UNselfish, they would actually get MORE points...sigh..

[KeonClark]

I love how everybody's so quick to say "run it through Val!" He is clearly not ready to be the #1 option (not saying DD and Gay are) and would end badly if we just handed the reins to Valanciunas right now. Patience, grasshopper.