Jack Armstrong: Gay/DD are NOT selfish players

[mcHAPPY]

There's not even anyone left from the 2008 or 2009 roster either.

But the core of the roster still remains from the previous GM who built around a certain now Knick.

[special1]

If we win 50 games a year like Phoenix did but never really be true contenders then fans would be happy and tune in, profits would go through the roof for ownership and they would be happy.

Reality is there are only a handful of true contenders, and those are the teams with the elite of elite talent on their roster. It's no coincidence it's the same teams and the same players which go deep each year. Only way to get there imo is through the draft.

Guys - Cleveland had Lebron and they never won a championship and he walked.....Orlando had Dwight Howard and they never won a championship and he asked to be traded. OKC has Kevin Durant and there's a good chance that he won't win one there either (he had Westbrook and Harden for a few years). New York and Denver has/had Melo and they haven't won shit. Shall i go on?? The Clippers have Blake Griffin and haven't even been to the West Finals. Utah had Deron Williams and didnt win anything.

EVEN if we were LUCKY enough to get anyone nearly as good as the guys i've mentioned above (in the draft), that doesn't mean shit! So, lets get back to earth and relax with this whole drafting getting anyone anywhere. It is a part of it, but doesnt guarantee anything. You MUST also make savvy trades and free agent signings to be a contender.

JV, Ross, Derozan, Acy are good pieces from the draft. We have more drafts coming up and we have owners willing to spend into and over the cap. I like where we are right now.

[psrs1]

What did getting playoff experience do for that 2007 Raptors club? With so many good trade assets to work with and a loaded draft upcoming, I think the opportunity to rebuild trumps any experience from getting pounded in the playoffs. At this point, I think it's more important to focus on building a roster that can become a perennial playoff team, which I don't see the current one ever becoming (they're a bubble-team now and capped-out as is).

If the team had loads of good young players and plenty of cap space, then I'd be more likely to consider what you're proposing. I guess I just view this team as being at a much earlier stage of their rebuilding (technically it hasn't even started... yet).

I see where you are coming from I just don't agree. In my view the most glaring flaw of tanking and rebuilding is acquiring all these picks and financial flexibility in no way ensues future success.

[Nilanka]

I wouldn't include Acy on the list of "good draft pieces". Right now, he barely belongs in the league.

[Nilanka]

I see where you are coming from I just don't agree. In my view the most glaring flaw of tanking and rebuilding is acquiring all these picks and financial flexibility in no way ensues future success.

There isn't a single strategy that "ensures future success". So I don't see how that is a valid argument against tanking.

There is an element of luck and intelligence involved with all strategies.

[psrs1]

Guys - Cleveland had Lebron and they never won a championship and he walked.....Orlando had Dwight Howard and they never won a championship and he asked to be traded. OKC has Kevin Durant and there's a good chance that he won't win one there either (he had Westbrook and Harden for a few years). New York and Denver has/had Melo and they haven't won shit. Shall i go on?? The Clippers have Blake Griffin and haven't even been to the West Finals. Utah had Deron Williams and didnt win anything.

EVEN if we were LUCKY enough to get anyone nearly as good as the guys i've mentioned above (in the draft), that doesn't mean shit! So, lets get back to earth and relax with this whole drafting getting anyone anywhere. It is a part of it, but doesnt guarantee anything. You MUST also make savvy trades and free agent signings to be a contender.

JV, Ross, Derozan, Acy are good pieces from the draft. We have more drafts coming up and we have owners willing to spend into and over the cap. I like where we are right now.

Good points. Many of the tankers on this site don't see the glaring weaknesses of the tanking strategy. Even when Cleveland drafted Lebron how many championships did they win?

[special1]

But the core of the roster still remains from the previous GM who built around a certain now Knick.

That certain player WAS the problem (defensively and rebounding wise - for a PF/C)..... he's gone and this team is better for it. Is that even a debate around here??? Why are we still holding onto the past. BC is gone. AB is gone. DC is free to actually play is style of basketball and we're currently tied for 4th in Opponent Points per game. Is this not a positive that we should embrace?? This core can be a good defensive unit and i just don't think many fans realize this.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...PointsOpponent

[Doc]

I wouldn't include Acy on the list of "good draft pieces". Right now, he barely belongs in the league.

[sarcasm]OMG ... did you not see his 9 points in 7 minutes played performance during preseason? That alone should promote him to borderline stardom or at least start over Amir. Casey and the Raptors are killing his growth.[/sarcasm]

[Nilanka]

Good points. Many of the tankers on this site don't see the glaring weaknesses of the tanking strategy. Even when Cleveland drafted Lebron how many championships did they win?

Wouldn't you rather see the Raptors lose in the finals than win 1 playoff round in 18 years?

[special1]

Wouldn't you rather see the Raptors lose in the finals than win 1 playoff round in 18 years?

I just want to see my team playing hard and winning as much as possible. Isn't this why we play and watch sports?? The Chicago Cubs haven't won a championship (world series) in over 100 years.....Boston Red Sox went like 86 or 88 years between World Series Victories until they broke the curse in 2004.

Guys - we're fans right?? Who knows if we'll ever win a NBA Title.... Cleveland couldn't win with one of the best of all time. Dirk is an awesome player and we would be lucky to draft him right? He won his title in his 13th year in the league. There's more to being a fan than caring about when/where your team loses.

[Mediumcore]

Guys - Cleveland had Lebron and they never won a championship and he walked.....Orlando had Dwight Howard and they never won a championship and he asked to be traded. OKC has Kevin Durant and there's a good chance that he won't win one there either (he had Westbrook and Harden for a few years). New York and Denver has/had Melo and they haven't won shit. Shall i go on?? The Clippers have Blake Griffin and haven't even been to the West Finals. Utah had Deron Williams and didnt win anything.

EVEN if we were LUCKY enough to get anyone nearly as good as the guys i've mentioned above (in the draft), that doesn't mean shit! So, lets get back to earth and relax with this whole drafting getting anyone anywhere. It is a part of it, but doesnt guarantee anything. You MUST also make savvy trades and free agent signings to be a contender.

JV, Ross, Derozan, Acy are good pieces from the draft. We have more drafts coming up and we have owners willing to spend into and over the cap. I like where we are right now.

That's exactly my point. Even with elite talent those teams (clevland/orlando) weren't true contenders because these days you need multiple super stars to be in the conversation, but at least those teams were in the mix for winning it. The sad part is winning a championship isn't in the cards for every team no matter the course they take.

As a GM you can either live with that reality and build the team as best you can or you can tank and give yourself a shot at obtaining that superstar talent. The tanking vs. non-tanking strategy basically boils down to are you happy making your profits with a good team or are you in it for winning championships and are willing to do what it takes to get yourself there. If you think that 99% of the GM's out there don't already know before a season begins that their team doesn't have a shot at winning a championship you are fooling yourself.

[Mediumcore]

Don't get me wrong, I'm tired of the losing as well, and I'm sure there are a lot of Raptor fans that would rather watch a good team that wins 50 games, but doesn't have a shot at a championship than go through another blow up. However, some of us want to know our team at least has a shot.

[Superjudge]

Good points. Many of the tankers on this site don't see the glaring weaknesses of the tanking strategy. Even when Cleveland drafted Lebron how many championships did they win?

hahahahahaaaaa

ahhhhahahahhaa

Really?

Clevelend went to the conference finals, and finals no?

[Superjudge]

There's more to being a fan than caring about when/where your team loses.

Ha.

Bud, here's where you're wrong. There isn't a code of ethics for being a "fan". The minute you truly believe there is one, you are no longer a fan, but the actual word...a FANATIC.

The NBA, NHL, MLB, or whatever you like, these are all examples of Sports entertainment. Entertainment is for leisure, people are free to take from them what they need in order to be happy. There are no rules, there are no good fans, or bad fans. Just fans. I don't need some guy who perhaps is a thousand times more emotionally attached to a Sports franchise than I could ever fathom to be to tell me that I am doing it wrong. Ever.

If I wanna see a team lose, so they can draft the first ever Canadian Born potential phenom 1rst over all, than thats my choice, my reasons are not "flawed", nor are they "uneducated" (trust me, I know the sports game pretty well). I wanna see it happen because its fun, and interesting, and exciting. the story would be amazing. Mediocrity isn't' even a story, its just...blah. Getting the first round pick at #1 isn't the last step, its the first, and mostly EVERYONE that supports a tank gets this, THIS is what I can't understand about what the Anti-tankers keep posting about what we want.... you don't seem to understand why we want a tank in the first place.

I can tell ya this much....it aint cuz were bad fans. Moreso, we just see a plan.

[mcHAPPY]

Guys - Cleveland had Lebron and they never won a championship and he walked.....Orlando had Dwight Howard and they never won a championship and he asked to be traded. OKC has Kevin Durant and there's a good chance that he won't win one there either (he had Westbrook and Harden for a few years). New York and Denver has/had Melo and they haven't won shit. Shall i go on?? The Clippers have Blake Griffin and haven't even been to the West Finals. Utah had Deron Williams and didnt win anything.

EVEN if we were LUCKY enough to get anyone nearly as good as the guys i've mentioned above (in the draft), that doesn't mean shit! So, lets get back to earth and relax with this whole drafting getting anyone anywhere. It is a part of it, but doesnt guarantee anything. You MUST also make savvy trades and free agent signings to be a contender.

JV, Ross, Derozan, Acy are good pieces from the draft. We have more drafts coming up and we have owners willing to spend into and over the cap. I like where we are right now.

Cleveland had an impatient owner and a childish star demanding win now at all costs which caused the GM to make some really short sighted trades that left the Cavs with few draft picks and no flexibility with overpaid players on the decline.

Orlando got to the finals with a core that did not have the same type of success in the next couple of years and then had a GM made awful awful awful decisions that turned the team quite average despite coaching and franchise C (who became a drama queen).

OKC has Durant, Ibaka, and Westbrook and of course had Harden. They now find themselves in a small market facing the realities of the CBA.

NY and Denver are proof you can't win with a self centered volume shooter.

Blake Griffin is 24 but more importantly they have a Chris Paul in his prime.

Deron Williams became a self obsessed breast like many others who caused Sloan to quit. However he did take them to the playoffs 4 straight years with a conference finals, 2 second round, and a first round loss. Not bad. Certainly much more success than the Raptors have EVER had.


In all your examples you ignore poor managerial decisions of those teams and, in OKC case, the realities of small market teams.


Your solution to keep going in the middle of the draft ignores some realities such as:
1) of the 150 spots on all-NBA first, second or third teams in the past decade, only 12 players have earned one who weren’t lottery picks.
2) the Raptors might have owners willing to spend in to the luxury tax but I doubt they will do it for a first round ceiling team or a playoff bubble team. Also there are the realities of the CBA placing real limits on how much they can spend.


DD is not a star player. Neither is Rudy. Lowry is not either. Valanciunas might be but the conservative in me would plan for just an above average starting C.

You need elite talent to win. Toronto does not have it. How will they trade for it? How will they sign it? They will not. They need to draft it...... unless you are banking on becoming the 2004 Pistons as the only team in the last 34 years who did not draft a franchise corner stone in the lottery to win a championship. That there requires more luck I would think.