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  • And oh yes, I would feel bad if I didn't add, this has zero to do with "hopes" on my end. Trust me. I have been a pretty big time sports guy for oh..... 35 years now or so. I follow more than just Basketball, and I earned my keep as a media/operations guy professionally, I have had and still have pretty smart cookies, who make their living being top shelf experts on all things pro sports. I have been lucky enough to sit through both NHL and NBA lockouts with media talking heads that blew my mind about all the things they knew about the sport from the front office out the the playing surface. And I learned, a great deal actually. I am a business man by trade, and I understand the economics of the NBA. I also understand the social climate (heh, even the actual climate) of a lot of the cities in the NBA having been to many, and having had the opportunity to actually red shirt on a college team myself way back when.

    So.

    If I say I want Toronto to tank to get Wiggans, there is a little bit more to it than just "hopes". I would suspect I am not the only one who could say this. The Front office pressures to succeed placed upon so many disposable coaches and GMs in pro sports are mind boggling. Think of the franchise sin cities that are gate driven, and absolutely need wins to fill seats, but who are not winning, and cannot draw FA's. The other teams are carrying them through the CBA agreement. Toronto, is one of the top 5 teams in the NBA in both market size and in revenues. They can afford to play mediocre ball, and could for the next 50 years and because of the size of the market, they will still fill seats and sell hats. This, and only this is why you have seen the GM decisions here you have seen, there has never been a real demand for winning, not winning at all costs, so guys just won enough to keep the team visible. But these guys also wnated re-ups on their contracts, so they couldn't go straight "tank", it would look bad, and if they wanted to move on, 10 and 72 looks pretty fucking horrible on a resume. So, they do what they do to keep afloat, they use the visible negatives as excuses and they flower up resumes.

    TL has come in and at least publicly, he's said that shit is over. I WAS THRILLED. Thrilled because I know that this guy will do whatever the hell he wants to ensure a healthy build. He wont', Masai won't nor will Casey even THINK of publicly supporting the tank, but you can sure as fuck be guaranteed its a massive option. And when this looks like its done (and it is) they will do what they gotta do to get that pick.

    it has ZERO to do with hope, and everything to do with limiting your choices to the highest possible percentages to succeed. Thats on the floor, in the box an din the media. You have to bust it, and build it. Its a cycle that has been alive for decades, and it has been because its how you gotta do it. Build it, break it, build it again. Cyclical. Good franchises do it, some get some bad luck, certainly, NOTHING is ever guaranteed, but they stay the course, ride out busts, ride out Ego maniacal stars, ride out injuries and retirements....but they stay that course.

    So ya man, I guess on the surface, it looks like I am sitting here going "golly gee, I really HOPE they get the #1 pick, and its wiggans, and he turns into Jordan and in the same year toronto wins it all"...ya, I guess, in some warped way I can see how that would cross your mind. But in the real world, my world, I see a business model, built years ago, that might not guarantee success, but it sure as hell guarantee's you will get a chance. I see a shark like TL, and I see his prickish ego, and I think, here's a guy that wants to build a champion, a guy that already see's full arena's, yet a losing, pathetic, soft team. And once I see this, I know why he saw this as the best job in pro sports, the chance of a lifetime. And in that moment, I finally knew the Team I liked, WASN'T going down the road of HOPE anymore, quite the opposite, they are finally going to put in the real work to do it right, start from the bottom, and build a fucking Championship.

    Comment


    • special1 wrote: View Post
      A lot there, so i won't stray from the point. See all the excuses you had for every team above? *Insert Toronto* and make up an excuse.....

      People are not perfect and neither are GMs. They ALL make mistakes. Therefore, its inevitable that you will have an excuse for us as well (if we were LUCKY enough to get the players above). Especially the childish star part.....GEEZ....That's like guaranteed!

      Isn't it possible if we win 45-50 games that a star free agent may want to sign here?? Our cap situation may be very different (even in one year). Think positive or you may want to cheer for another team. This team as constructed WILL be competitive.
      paragraph 1: There is no excuse just realities: bad management and bad decisions.

      paragraph 2: Who said GMs were perfect or didn't make mistakes? The key is to not make really big mistakes.... or be in a small market with 2 franchise talents and 2 all-stars.

      paragraph 3: Is the star free agent going to sign for the MLE or about $7-8M? Because that will be all the Raptors have to offer going forward with this core.

      bold: Cheer for another team, eh? I remember when I was full of hope and optimism saying that to another poster. Wow, I just realized how delusional I must have been to that person.... and arrogant. Whoever: My apologies. If you want to compete for a playoff appearance, you'll likely get your wish. Personally, I want more than that. If one was arrogant enough he could argue that willing to sacrifice for the even slight possibility of a championship would make him a SUPER DUPER fan.

      Comment


      • Not trying to be an ageist here, but I would guess the fans who are optimistic about this roster haven't experienced almost 2 decades of losing following this team.

        It's not humanly possible to be that patient

        Comment


        • special1 wrote: View Post
          I'm really glad i have more optimism than you do...... you seem to be searching for perfection WHICH you will NEVER find EVEN if we tank. You may no longer have false hope in us "being a middle of the pack team" BUT you sure do have A TON of false hope in tanking. Good luck sir.

          FYI - you don't need to tank to rebuild or re-tool. YET You just keep pushing your agenda.....you look into your crystal ball and see tanking as the ONLY solution.....yadda yadda yadda... we got it!
          Are you telling me that you honestly believe this current Raptors team will be a perennial deep playoff team, consistently achieving at least the 2nd round?

          Once again, you are stuck on the word "tank" and not paying attention to what "my agenda" has included in multiple posts in multiple threads.

          MY AGENDA
          - trade expensive/expiring/unwanted contracts for young prospects, expiring contracts and draft picks
          - the team will likely become worse this season as a result of the trade, resulting in more Ping-Pong balls to maximize the Raptors' own draft positioning
          - build through the draft, including multiple 1st round picks in 2014
          - use new cap space to pursue young, talented free agents in the upcoming offseason, to build a team that fits together better than the current one, building around a core of Valanciunas, Ross, whatever worthwhile players are acquired in trade (for Gay, Lowry, DeRozan, Novak, Hansborough, Fields and possibly even Johnson), and 2014 draft picks

          My agenda is all about building a better team, which is more talented, fits together better, is more cost-effective, has a higher ceiling and is built for more sustainable success (this takes age, contract status/amount/length, etc... into account).

          Comment


          • special1 wrote: View Post
            Do you realize that there is NOT one player from the 2007 team on our roster?? Why don't you get over the past? Different GM, Different players, Different coach..... YET your still talking about the past. Sigh.... How do you know your re-build will result in a playoff team??? This team has loads of good young players (Derozan, Ross, JV, Acy, Amir - all 26 and under)....if Rudy and Kyle are just left to walk away, we would have plenty of cap space.

            You continue to ignore the positives and spew the negatives. You need to understand that your not psychic. You have your opinions and thats all. You can be proven wrong just like the next guy. What's the point of being a fan if your not even cheering or rooting for your team (as is and also in the future - whichever direction MU chooses)??
            You're so hypocritical! lol

            My response was to your comment about "ask Washington how their rebuild is working for them?" (I'm paraphrasing). You point to another team that has done a pretty good job with their rebuild through the draft (Wall, Beals, Porter) but is struggling early this season (Okafor injury was big loss for them), as reason why Toronto should not follow a similar path.

            First, you failed to acknowledge the teams that have been (historically) and are currently successful, all thanks to a methodical strategy of building through the draft. Evidence exists to support the claim that no other method has resulted to success (ie: NBA Championships) as building through the draft, yet you seem willing to write-off this approach because Washington is struggling. San Antonio still looks good. OKC is doing ok. The Bulls have Rose back and are expected to do well. Several other bad teams are heading in the right direction (Cleveland, Orlando, Charlotte, New Orleans, etc...). Picking one random example to support your claim is folly.

            Second, I was pointing out to a recent example of the very same Raptors following the very same strategy you're proposing, under the very same set of circumstances that you're pointing out as existing within Eastern Conference and Atlantic Division. Yet, because it goes against your argument, you want to just write-off history an meaningless. The saying goes that if you ignore history, you're doomed to repeat it. If you want to repeat the past 7 years, go right ahead.

            I've NEVER claimed that my preferred strategy of rebuilding will be successful. I only claim that I don't view the ceiling of this current roster to be anything more than 1st round playoff fodder for truly good teams. I also point out the fact that this team is capped-out, likely to become a luxury tax is Lowry is re-signed (and if Gay chooses to stay). Therefore, there is no opportunity for this team to improve, unless via trade. Therefore, I do believe that they may as well start rebuilding/retooling now (ie: trades), to simultaneously take advantage of a loaded draft, especially if they're going to have to trade to improve at some point in the next year anyway.

            Comment


            • psrs1 wrote: View Post
              I see where you are coming from I just don't agree. In my view the most glaring flaw of tanking and rebuilding is acquiring all these picks and financial flexibility in no way ensues future success.
              Of course not, I completely agree. However, when compared to a capped-out roster that is a borderline playoff team at best (and likely to become a luxury-tax team if Lowry is re-signed to continue to preserve the status quo), what exactly do you stand to lose? Building through the draft has proven to be the most consistent form of success, especially for a team that can't rely solely on free agency. Again, if I were considering deconstructing a perennial playoff team, I could understand where you're coming from. Given that this capped-out team is not even assured of making the playoffs, I don't consider changing direction to a more natural rebuild/retool a risk at all. It's only a risk if you stand to lose something.
              Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Nov 14, 2013, 03:24 PM.

              Comment


              • special1 wrote: View Post
                Dude - I'm not here to try to tell posters to be better fans. If you want to put your hopes and dreams in a lottery GO AHEAD. Enjoy your losses and i truly hope we get that #1 pick. I mean.....there's only like 29 other teams that would LOVE to get that #1 pick right??
                The bolded part shows that you haven't bothered to read any posts by pro-tankers, to understand what the strategy actually entails. You and I had a pretty reasonable discussion about this just a couple weeks ago, when I explained how my "tanking" strategy included several parts, not simply hoping for more Ping-Pong balls.

                If you want to continue arguing based on your personal beliefs of what "tanking" is, rather than actually care to educate yourself about the thorough strategy being promoted by the pro-tank posters, that's fine. You have that right. Just don't bash the pro-tanker strategy then, because it's completely different than what your personal definition of "tanking" is.
                Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Nov 14, 2013, 03:25 PM.

                Comment


                • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                  The bolded part shows that you haven't bothered to read any posts by pro-tankers, to understand what the strategy actually entails. You and I had a pretty reasonable discussion about this just a couple weeks ago, when I explained how my "tanking" strategy included several parts, not simply hoping for more Ping-Pong balls.

                  If you want to continue arguing based on your personal beliefs of what "tanking" is, rather than actually care to educated yourself about the thorough strategy being promoted by the pro-tank posters, that's fine. You have that right. Just don't bash the pro-tanker strategy then, because it's completely different that what your personal definition of "tanking" is.
                  Kind of reminds me of the evolution deniers. "I never seen no monkey give birth to a human!"

                  Uggghhhh, that's not what we're saying at all....

                  Comment


                  • Just putting the question out there, just to separate the fair weather tankers from the real tankers, but are you ready to commit to a Charlotte Bobcats type rebuild (worse case scenario)? We all know the draft lottery doesn't guarantee anything. We can argue that they didn't have MU making their picks, but nobody can guarantee things will go any better for us than it has for them, and there is no denying that the pro tankers are advocating we do as Charlotte has done.

                    I can tell you that there is more than a handful of Charlotte fans that would take a 50 win team without a prayer of contending over what they have right now.

                    I'm just asking 'cause lately with all the tank avatars and all the posters jumping on the band wagon is getting pretty crazy. How committed are ya'll?

                    Comment


                    • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                      Just putting the question out there, just to separate the fair weather tankers from the real tankers, but are you ready to commit to a Charlotte Bobcats type rebuild (worse case scenario)? We all know the draft lottery doesn't guarantee anything. We can argue that they didn't have MU making their picks, but nobody can guarantee things will go any better for us than it has for them, and there is no denying that the pro tankers are advocating we do as Charlotte has done.

                      I can tell you that there is more than a handful of Charlotte fans that would take a 50 win team without a prayer of contending over what they have right now.

                      I'm just asking 'cause lately with all the tank avatars and all the posters jumping on the band wagon is getting pretty crazy. How committed are ya'll?
                      As a pro-tanker, I would take a 50-win team myself. But that's not happening with this group

                      Comment


                      • How committed.... Bobcat committed.

                        Totally.

                        Ya gotta.

                        Comment


                        • Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                          Just putting the question out there, just to separate the fair weather tankers from the real tankers, but are you ready to commit to a Charlotte Bobcats type rebuild (worse case scenario)? We all know the draft lottery doesn't guarantee anything. We can argue that they didn't have MU making their picks, but nobody can guarantee things will go any better for us than it has for them, and there is no denying that the pro tankers are advocating we do as Charlotte has done.

                          I can tell you that there is more than a handful of Charlotte fans that would take a 50 win team without a prayer of contending over what they have right now.

                          I'm just asking 'cause lately with all the tank avatars and all the posters jumping on the band wagon is getting pretty crazy. How committed are ya'll?
                          Absolutely.

                          Look at their draft history and what it led to:

                          http://www.basketball-reference.com/...CHA/draft.html

                          They botched so many draft combined with two notoriously cheap owners.

                          Why I am so adamant about building through the draft is because Ujiri and Weltman have built their careers on their talent identification skills.

                          Bring it on.

                          Comment


                          • [QUOTE=Craig;247212]And oh yes, I would feel bad if I didn't add, this has zero to do with "hopes" on my end. Trust me. I have been a pretty big time sports guy for oh..... 35 years now or so. I follow more than just Basketball, and I earned my keep as a media/operations guy professionally, I have had and still have pretty smart cookies, who make their living being top shelf experts on all things pro sports. I have been lucky enough to sit through both NHL and NBA lockouts with media talking heads that blew my mind about all the things they knew about the sport from the front office out the the playing surface. And I learned, a great deal actually. I am a business man by trade, and I understand the economics of the NBA. I also understand the social climate (heh, even the actual climate) of a lot of the cities in the NBA having been to many, and having had the opportunity to actually red shirt on a college team myself way back when.

                            So.

                            If I say I want Toronto to tank to get Wiggans, there is a little bit more to it than just "hopes". I would suspect I am not the only one who could say this. The Front office pressures to succeed placed upon so many disposable coaches and GMs in pro sports are mind boggling. Think of the franchise sin cities that are gate driven, and absolutely need wins to fill seats, but who are not winning, and cannot draw FA's. The other teams are carrying them through the CBA agreement. Toronto, is one of the top 5 teams in the NBA in both market size and in revenues. They can afford to play mediocre ball, and could for the next 50 years and because of the size of the market, they will still fill seats and sell hats. This, and only this is why you have seen the GM decisions here you have seen, there has never been a real demand for winning, not winning at all costs, so guys just won enough to keep the team visible. But these guys also wnated re-ups on their contracts, so they couldn't go straight "tank", it would look bad, and if they wanted to move on, 10 and 72 looks pretty fucking horrible on a resume. So, they do what they do to keep afloat, they use the visible negatives as excuses and they flower up resumes.

                            TL has come in and at least publicly, he's said that shit is over. I WAS THRILLED. Thrilled because I know that this guy will do whatever the hell he wants to ensure a healthy build. He wont', Masai won't nor will Casey even THINK of publicly supporting the tank, but you can sure as fuck be guaranteed its a massive option. And when this looks like its done (and it is) they will do what they gotta do to get that pick.

                            it has ZERO to do with hope, and everything to do with limiting your choices to the highest possible percentages to succeed. Thats on the floor, in the box an din the media. You have to bust it, and build it. Its a cycle that has been alive for decades, and it has been because its how you gotta do it. Build it, break it, build it again. Cyclical. Good franchises do it, some get some bad luck, certainly, NOTHING is ever guaranteed, but they stay the course, ride out busts, ride out Ego maniacal stars, ride out injuries and retirements....but they stay that course.

                            So ya man, I guess on the surface, it looks like I am sitting here going "golly gee, I really HOPE they get the #1 pick, and its wiggans, and he turns into Jordan and in the same year toronto wins it all"...ya, I guess, in some warped way I can see how that would cross your mind. But in the real world, my world, I see a business model, built years ago, that might not guarantee success, but it sure as hell guarantee's you will get a chance. I see a shark like TL, and I see his prickish ego, and I think, here's a guy that wants to build a champion, a guy that already see's full arena's, yet a losing, pathetic, soft team. And once I see this, I know why he saw this as the best job in pro sports, the chance of a lifetime. And in that moment, I finally knew the Team I liked, WASN'T going down the road of HOPE anymore, quite the opposite, they are finally going to put in the real work to do it right, start from the bottom, and build a fucking Championship.[/QUOTE]

                            I must say i hope your right. Look...I would be on board with a full REBUILD if that's the direction MU ultimately chooses. I dream about getting Wiggins, Parker or Randle (or any other "sure fire stud" in this upcoming draft) as much as the next guy. However, I love my team regardless. As long as they bring in players who work hard and play hard, i will be fine.

                            I WOULD ABSOLUTELY LOVE to win a championship in the near future. Are you kidding me? Who wouldn't? I guess what irks me is when posters throw around tanking like blowing it up = championship soon. Very far from it in my opinion. I think tanking actually puts you back some UNLESS you get the next Lebron......then you may get to the finals, but no guarantees until you get some other superstars to play with him.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              paragraph 1: There is no excuse just realities: bad management and bad decisions.

                              paragraph 2: Who said GMs were perfect or didn't make mistakes? The key is to not make really big mistakes.... or be in a small market with 2 franchise talents and 2 all-stars.

                              paragraph 3: Is the star free agent going to sign for the MLE or about $7-8M? Because that will be all the Raptors have to offer going forward with this core.

                              bold: Cheer for another team, eh? I remember when I was full of hope and optimism saying that to another poster. Wow, I just realized how delusional I must have been to that person.... and arrogant. Whoever: My apologies. If you want to compete for a playoff appearance, you'll likely get your wish. Personally, I want more than that. If one was arrogant enough he could argue that willing to sacrifice for the even slight possibility of a championship would make him a SUPER DUPER fan.
                              First and foremost, I want to apologize if i came off as arrogant. That was not my intent. My thinking was why follow a team you think is doomed to failure??

                              Secondly, Rudy makes 18 million, Lowry makes 6......If they walk, how do we only have 7-8 million? I guess thats just my wait and see....(In my personal opinion) the core moving forward should be JV, DD, and maybe Amir. Obviously you could include Ross and Acy. I don't know what Rudy Gay is going to do and I don't know about Kyle Lowry either. If they can be signed to reasonable contracts.....I may be okay with it. BUT only if we can win with them.

                              I guess i just dont see the hopelessness that many on here see. I wish i could, but i dont.
                              Last edited by special1; Thu Nov 14, 2013, 05:05 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                Not trying to be an ageist here, but I would guess the fans who are optimistic about this roster haven't experienced almost 2 decades of losing following this team.

                                It's not humanly possible to be that patient
                                LOL.... Hey I was there from the the beginning. At first it wasn't so bad because we were an expansion team. Yes, it was frustrating for a while after that, but Vince came and brought excitement we never imagined possible. Bosh did his thing BUT the team had to deal with BC and his flaws (I count picking #1/keeping/coddling Andrea as one of his flaws).

                                We need to remember that there are like 20 other teams who haven't won shit in a VERY long time (A lot longer than Us). If you must know, that's what keeps me so patient.

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