Jack Armstrong: Gay/DD are NOT selfish players

[mcHAPPY]

First and foremost, I want to apologize if i came off as arrogant. That was not my intent. My thinking was why follow a team you think is doomed to failure??

Secondly, Rudy makes 18 million, Lowry makes 6......If they walk, how do we only have 7-8 million? I guess thats just my wait and see....(In my personal oppinion) the core moving forward should be JV, DD, and maybe Amir. Obviously you could include Ross and Acy. I don't know what Rudy Gay is going to do and I don't know about Kyle Lowry either. If they can be signed to reasonable contracts.....I may be okay with it. BUT only if we can win with them.

I guess i just dont see the hopelessness that many on here see. I wish i could, but i dont.

No worries.

I have followed the Raptors since they came in to the league. I have experienced a lot of failure, in a lot of different ways. This current roster, with the core assembled under a previous GM who failed, stinks of failure in my opinion. My opinion of failure is anything that does not ensure a chance to compete.

If Rudy and Lowry walk, yes, we have about $18M with no starting PG and no SF. The Raptors are still not a free agent destination. Who are they signing next summer?

If Rudy walks and Lowry is resigned, say to $7M deal, they have $11M but they are still smelling of loser - who are they going to sign?

If Rudy opts in and Lowry goes elsewhere, the Raptors have the MLE to find a PG.

If Rudy opts in and Lowry is resigned this team has its nose pressed against the ceiling.


I guess I just don't see the optimism you're seeing. I wish I could, but I don't.

[Nilanka]

LOL.... Hey I was there from the the beginning. At first it wasn't so bad because we were an expansion team. Yes, it was frustrating for a while after that, but Vince came and brought excitement we never imagined possible. Bosh did his thing BUT the team had to deal with BC and his flaws (I count picking #1/keeping/coddling Andrea as one of his flaws).

We need to remember that there are like 20 other teams who haven't won shit in a VERY long time (A lot longer than Us). If you must know, that's what keeps me so patient.

I suppose it's a matter of perspective.

Being reminded that there are worse teams in the league doesn't make me feel better about the Raptors, just as seeing homeless people under the Gardiner doesn't make me feel better about the 25 years of mortgage payments I have left

[mcHAPPY]

LOL.... Hey I was there from the the beginning. At first it wasn't so bad because we were an expansion team. Yes, it was frustrating for a while after that, but Vince came and brought excitement we never imagined possible. Bosh did his thing BUT the team had to deal with BC and his flaws (I count picking #1/keeping/coddling Andrea as one of his flaws).

We need to remember that there are like 20 other teams who haven't won shit in a VERY long time (A lot longer than Us). If you must know, that's what keeps me so patient.

The Raptors are one of the 5 worst regular season teams in the league since their inception.

In 18 years they have won just one best of 5 game series.

I would be shocked if you can find 3 teams with a worst history over the last 18 years than that.

[mcHAPPY]

And oh yes, I would feel bad if I didn't add, this has zero to do with "hopes" on my end. Trust me. I have been a pretty big time sports guy for oh..... 35 years now or so. I follow more than just Basketball, and I earned my keep as a media/operations guy professionally, I have had and still have pretty smart cookies, who make their living being top shelf experts on all things pro sports. I have been lucky enough to sit through both NHL and NBA lockouts with media talking heads that blew my mind about all the things they knew about the sport from the front office out the the playing surface. And I learned, a great deal actually. I am a business man by trade, and I understand the economics of the NBA. I also understand the social climate (heh, even the actual climate) of a lot of the cities in the NBA having been to many, and having had the opportunity to actually red shirt on a college team myself way back when.

So.

If I say I want Toronto to tank to get Wiggans, there is a little bit more to it than just "hopes". I would suspect I am not the only one who could say this. The Front office pressures to succeed placed upon so many disposable coaches and GMs in pro sports are mind boggling. Think of the franchise sin cities that are gate driven, and absolutely need wins to fill seats, but who are not winning, and cannot draw FA's. The other teams are carrying them through the CBA agreement. Toronto, is one of the top 5 teams in the NBA in both market size and in revenues. They can afford to play mediocre ball, and could for the next 50 years and because of the size of the market, they will still fill seats and sell hats. This, and only this is why you have seen the GM decisions here you have seen, there has never been a real demand for winning, not winning at all costs, so guys just won enough to keep the team visible. But these guys also wnated re-ups on their contracts, so they couldn't go straight "tank", it would look bad, and if they wanted to move on, 10 and 72 looks pretty fucking horrible on a resume. So, they do what they do to keep afloat, they use the visible negatives as excuses and they flower up resumes.

TL has come in and at least publicly, he's said that shit is over. I WAS THRILLED. Thrilled because I know that this guy will do whatever the hell he wants to ensure a healthy build. He wont', Masai won't nor will Casey even THINK of publicly supporting the tank, but you can sure as fuck be guaranteed its a massive option. And when this looks like its done (and it is) they will do what they gotta do to get that pick.

it has ZERO to do with hope, and everything to do with limiting your choices to the highest possible percentages to succeed. Thats on the floor, in the box an din the media. You have to bust it, and build it. Its a cycle that has been alive for decades, and it has been because its how you gotta do it. Build it, break it, build it again. Cyclical. Good franchises do it, some get some bad luck, certainly, NOTHING is ever guaranteed, but they stay the course, ride out busts, ride out Ego maniacal stars, ride out injuries and retirements....but they stay that course.

So ya man, I guess on the surface, it looks like I am sitting here going "golly gee, I really HOPE they get the #1 pick, and its wiggans, and he turns into Jordan and in the same year toronto wins it all"...ya, I guess, in some warped way I can see how that would cross your mind. But in the real world, my world, I see a business model, built years ago, that might not guarantee success, but it sure as hell guarantee's you will get a chance. I see a shark like TL, and I see his prickish ego, and I think, here's a guy that wants to build a champion, a guy that already see's full arena's, yet a losing, pathetic, soft team. And once I see this, I know why he saw this as the best job in pro sports, the chance of a lifetime. And in that moment, I finally knew the Team I liked, WASN'T going down the road of HOPE anymore, quite the opposite, they are finally going to put in the real work to do it right, start from the bottom, and build a fucking Championship.

Goose bumps!

[special1]

Are you telling me that you honestly believe this current Raptors team will be a perennial deep playoff team, consistently achieving at least the 2nd round?
Once again, you are stuck on the word "tank" and not paying attention to what "my agenda" has included in multiple posts in multiple threads.

MY AGENDA
- trade expensive/expiring/unwanted contracts for young prospects, expiring contracts and draft picks
- the team will likely become worse this season as a result of the trade, resulting in more Ping-Pong balls to maximize the Raptors' own draft positioning
- build through the draft, including multiple 1st round picks in 2014
- use new cap space to pursue young, talented free agents in the upcoming offseason, to build a team that fits together better than the current one, building around a core of Valanciunas, Ross, whatever worthwhile players are acquired in trade (for Gay, Lowry, DeRozan, Novak, Hansborough, Fields and possibly even Johnson), and 2014 draft picks

My agenda is all about building a better team, which is more talented, fits together better, is more cost-effective, has a higher ceiling and is built for more sustainable success (this takes age, contract status/amount/length, etc... into account).

First Bold - Are you telling me that you will be able to build one through tanking in the near future?? Wouldn't you need to start somewhere? Does anyone remember the year Bosh left? We were in eighth and Chicago came back and took it by 1/2 a game because Bosh was out?? Why don't you think we can build on a playoff team? Keep in mind i never said we should re-sign Lowry or Gay. I'm on a wait and see.

Second bold - I'm not saying its imposssible BUT I think its VERY unlikely to be getting multiple first round picks in 2014

Third bold - Every GM wants to build a better team. My question is HOW do you know the players you draft will be MORE talented than the players you've given up?? How do you know you won't draft a BUST? How do you know if it fits better if they haven't even played a game together? How do you know Ross will even be a better player than Derozan? This isn't fantasy basketball.....

[Nilanka]

Third bold - Every GM wants to build a better team. My question is HOW do you know the players you draft will be MORE talented than the players you've given up?? How do you know you won't draft a BUST? How do you know if it fits better if they haven't even played a game together? How do you know Ross will even be a better player than Derozan? This isn't fantasy basketball.....

You prefer the "wait and see" approach. Without franchise talent, this approach has very little chance of winning a title.

Others prefer the "tank and see" approach. While acquiring pick(s), this approach is simply the foundation for what a championship team is built on.

[mcHAPPY]

First Bold - Are you telling me that you will be able to build one through tanking in the near future?? Wouldn't you need to start somewhere? Does anyone remember the year Bosh left? We were in eighth and Chicago came back and took it by 1/2 a game because Bosh was out?? Why don't you think we can build on a playoff team? Keep in mind i never said we should re-sign Lowry or Gay. I'm on a wait and see.

Second bold - I'm not saying its imposssible BUT I think its VERY unlikely to be getting multiple first round picks in 2014

Third bold - Every GM wants to build a better team. My question is HOW do you know the players you draft will be MORE talented than the players you've given up?? How do you know you won't draft a BUST? How do you know if it fits better if they haven't even played a game together? How do you know Ross will even be a better player than Derozan? This isn't fantasy basketball.....

Every strategy has unknowns.

How do you know Rudy and Lowry resign?
How do you know the Raptors will be able to find free agents that are better than any player who leaves?
How do you know the current players are not going to regress or plateau?


Here is what we do know: you don't win without elite talent and the best way for the Raptors to get it, given their salary situation and the CBA combined with current trade assets, is to draft it. Why is drafting it the best? Because you're going to have the option of keeping the talent for 8-9 years regardless of salary cap thanks to Bird Rights OR you'll have valuable rookie contract players which teams covet when trading away star players.

[special1]

You're so hypocritical! lol

My response was to your comment about "ask Washington how their rebuild is working for them?" (I'm paraphrasing). You point to another team that has done a pretty good job with their rebuild through the draft (Wall, Beals, Porter) but is struggling early this season (Okafor injury was big loss for them), as reason why Toronto should not follow a similar path.

First, you failed to acknowledge the teams that have been (historically) and are currently successful, all thanks to a methodical strategy of building through the draft. Evidence exists to support the claim that no other method has resulted to success (ie: NBA Championships) as building through the draft, yet you seem willing to write-off this approach because Washington is struggling. San Antonio still looks good. OKC is doing ok. The Bulls have Rose back and are expected to do well. Several other bad teams are heading in the right direction (Cleveland, Orlando, Charlotte, New Orleans, etc...). Picking one random example to support your claim is folly.

Second, I was pointing out to a recent example of the very same Raptors following the very same strategy you're proposing, under the very same set of circumstances that you're pointing out as existing within Eastern Conference and Atlantic Division. Yet, because it goes against your argument, you want to just write-off history an meaningless. The saying goes that if you ignore history, you're doomed to repeat it. If you want to repeat the past 7 years, go right ahead.

I've NEVER claimed that my preferred strategy of rebuilding will be successful. I only claim that I don't view the ceiling of this current roster to be anything more than 1st round playoff fodder for truly good teams. I also point out the fact that this team is capped-out, likely to become a luxury tax is Lowry is re-signed (and if Gay chooses to stay). Therefore, there is no opportunity for this team to improve, unless via trade. Therefore, I do believe that they may as well start rebuilding/retooling now (ie: trades), to simultaneously take advantage of a loaded draft, especially if they're going to have to trade to improve at some point in the next year anyway.

To be honest, I have no idea what your talking about in the first paragraph.....I don't see where i was being hypocritical. I'm assuming you responded to the wrong post. However, I may be wrong.

What I said was regarding THIS team and the mistakes of the PAST and that we should move on from them. Different team. Different Coach. Different GM. How is that hypocritial? Do you think MU will make the same mistakes as BC?? I seriously doubt it. He has already shown a different (patient) approach. Actually, your rush to rebuild (because i think you would find out very quickly that it is a lot harder to build a team) reminds me of BC. Always itching to do something without knowing what you actually have. You were calling for a rebuild BEFORE the season began. Hi Bryan Collangelo.....I see you found a job as a super moderator on RR. lol

[special1]

The bolded part shows that you haven't bothered to read any posts by pro-tankers, to understand what the strategy actually entails. You and I had a pretty reasonable discussion about this just a couple weeks ago, when I explained how my "tanking" strategy included several parts, not simply hoping for more Ping-Pong balls.

If you want to continue arguing based on your personal beliefs of what "tanking" is, rather than actually care to educate yourself about the thorough strategy being promoted by the pro-tank posters, that's fine. You have that right. Just don't bash the pro-tanker strategy then, because it's completely different than what your personal definition of "tanking" is.

OH please....the one thing i got from our "discussion" was that pro-tankers dont even agree on what their definition of "tanking" is. You ask 10 pro-tankers and you get 5 different definitions. Are you now speaking on behalf of all pro-tankers??

[Nilanka]

Bryan Colangelo attempted "rebuilds" by trading shit for shit.

Rebuilding through the draft is a completely different ball game.

Lumping them together and calling it "rebuilding" isn't accurate.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

First Bold - Are you telling me that you will be able to build one through tanking in the near future?? Wouldn't you need to start somewhere? Does anyone remember the year Bosh left? We were in eighth and Chicago came back and took it by 1/2 a game because Bosh was out?? Why don't you think we can build on a playoff team? Keep in mind i never said we should re-sign Lowry or Gay. I'm on a wait and see.

Second bold - I'm not saying its imposssible BUT I think its VERY unlikely to be getting multiple first round picks in 2014

Third bold - Every GM wants to build a better team. My question is HOW do you know the players you draft will be MORE talented than the players you've given up?? How do you know you won't draft a BUST? How do you know if it fits better if they haven't even played a game together? How do you know Ross will even be a better player than Derozan? This isn't fantasy basketball.....

My 'tanking' strategy includes many parts and doesn't hinge on a single draft choice. The bottom line is that this team is not good. So yes, I would rather take a chance on building a team via the method that has historically/consistently proven to be the most effective method - the draft.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

To be honest, I have no idea what your talking about in the first paragraph.....I don't see where i was being hypocritical. I'm assuming you responded to the wrong post. However, I may be wrong.

What I said was regarding THIS team and the mistakes of the PAST and that we should move on from them. Different team. Different Coach. Different GM. How is that hypocritial? Do you think MU will make the same mistakes as BC?? I seriously doubt it. He has already shown a different (patient) approach. Actually, your rush to rebuild (because i think you would find out very quickly that it is a lot harder to build a team) reminds me of BC. Always iching to do something without knowing what you actually have. You were calling for a rebuild BEFORE the season began. Hi Bryan Collangelo.....I see you found a job as a super moderator on RR. lol

My bad, I was replying to psrs1's comment, then you replied to my reply. I saw the "1" and got you two mixed up. My point remains though, that you took my response out of context, because you didn't pay attention to what I was referring to.

Before the season began, I was calling for a retool. If you look at the original tank/tweak thread that got bumped today, you'll notice I purposefully didn't vote because I felt a 'retool & see' approach was the best one for the team to take in the offseason. Specifically, I was calling for DeRozan to be traded for a traditional PF (ie: S&T for Milsap). I thought a better PF would take pressure off Valanciunas and give another option to flow the offense through, while relegating Amir to 3rd big status (where I think he'd thrive). I also thought adding Fields or Ross to the starting lineup would create better balance for that lineup, replacing a redundant scorer with a good glue/defense guy. Given the team's financial limitations, yet wanting to give a majority of the core a chance before blowing it up completely, I felt that a retooling was the best approach. The team didn't take that approach and it looks like this team is destined to be a playoff bubble team at best, so I've moved into the blow-it-up camp.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

OH please....the one thing i got from our "discussion" was that pro-tankers dont even agree on what their definition of "tanking" is. You ask 10 pro-tankers and you get 5 different definitions. Are you now speaking on behalf of all pro-tankers??

No, I speak on behalf of myself. You argue with me about "my agenda", but the claims you're making about what my 'tanking' strategy entail are nowhere close to the actual strategy I'm proposing.

[special1]

I suppose it's a matter of perspective.

Being reminded that there are worse teams in the league doesn't make me feel better about the Raptors, just as seeing homeless people under the Gardiner doesn't make me feel better about the 25 years of mortgage payments I have left

Hahahaha Awesome! So i guess it won't make you feel better that i have 27 years of mortgate payments left....lol

[jimmie]

No, I speak on behalf of myself. You argue with me about "my agenda", but the claims you're making about what my 'tanking' strategy entail are nowhere close to the actual strategy I'm proposing.

Cripes. Motion to strike the term "tank" from further usage.

I don't speak for everyone, either, but from actually reading what others have written, it's pretty clear that no one -- NOT ONE PERSON -- is advocating for losing on purpose. What it boils down to is:

1. Do you think this team, as constructed, is good enough to compete for an NBA championship (this year, next year, the year after -- name your window)?

If your answer to this question is "yes", then you're just delusional. If your answer is "no, I see some decent players, but I admit they will likely never get to the Finals as a unit", or "no, they have some decent players, but no true elite star that history tells us is necessary to win a 'ship", then your next question is:

2. Are MAJOR or MINOR changes needed to turn this into a team that IS good enough to compete for an NBA championship?

And then you're into rebuilding, one way or another, whether you admit it or not. Most of those who are being labelled "pro tankers" think major changes are needed, vs. minor ones. If you're saying only minor changes are needed to take this team to the promised land, you should step up and let us know how you think we can turn this current roster into a championship-calibre roster without using a lot of our assets in the process. And if we move a lot of our assets, guess what -- we're highly likely to lose more games in the short term. Which means a better chance at the lottery and an elite draft talent. "Tanking" with this team isn't even a 'strategy' -- it's just a useful by-product of making any roster moves at all with the objective of eventually making this team a contender. Unless you're talking about moving a Q. Acy or other 'spare parts' for that missing elite talent -- and then you're just delusional.