Everything Masai Ujiri

[LJ2]

About $20-21M if we keep OG's cap hold. $48M if we don't and let him walk as well. But we'd only have like 6 or 7 roster spots (even less if we let Malachi and Precious walk too).

Not really worth having cap space. Plus who are the top tier free agents we must have to build around Scottie with?

There are some interesting shooters and supporting cast type players available in the off season which I think Raps can land if they outbid other teams.

Buddy Heild, Malik Monk, Lonnie Walker for shooters. Miles Bridges if you're looking for a buy low potential Robin for Scottie (I say buy low only because of all the legal issues and am assuming).

[slaw]

I mean Fred's take wasn't at all what I was focusing on but it would seem he's still the focus for many here .

It was that management had this plan all along to build around Scottie, but didn't pull the trigger on trades for any of the guys they deemed expendable last trade deadline and let Fred walk in the summer. Now we're heading in the same direction with Pascal and possibly OG and Trent as well. If it comes to pass that Pascal walks this summer as well then what other conclusion is there to make other than management values the cap space more than any attainable assets gained via a Pascal trade? Is his value that low or is cap space valued higher to their future plans?

Anyone know what the cap would look like for the Raps if Pascal walks?

Again, though, they tried to re-sign Fred. It wasn't like they just said adios. And if they never intended to re-sign him (and it was all kabuki theatre) why not trade him at the deadline rather than waste everyone's time and effort going through the motions?

It's not like letting Pascal walk is going to free up loads of cap space and, even if it did, who are they going to sign? Ujiri has always operated above the cap for a reason. If Siakam's value is so low that there is no trade that has any value for Toronto that's squarely on this front office for waiting to trade a 3-month rental.

[LJ2]

The other (most likely) conclusion is that management takes way too long to "evaluate" and "assess" their existing roster, to the point of running out of time & options.

Executives are paid specifically for their ability to forecast, plan and execute accordingly... not wait until the "evaluations" are obvious to all, and opportunities are missed, which would've been valuable to capitalize on, had the evaluations and assessments been correctly made much earlier. Waiting until everybody, including the ball boy, knows the results of the assessments, while losing optionality, are not what executives are hired to do.

Saying more or less that management is incompetent is a bit too easy of an answer isn't it? I think we can all agree Masai is pretty good at his job, so there has to be something else motivating their actions/non-actions. Only thing I can come up with is that maybe they are prioritizing cap space more than attainable assets via a trade? Makes a bit of sense if they are targeting players that fit with Scottie's timeline because he's probably going to be too good to surround with super young players that need development. Players they can target with cap space should be know commodities if they're up for a new contract.

[MixxAOR]

Again, though, they tried to re-sign Fred. It wasn't like they just said adios. And if they never intended to re-sign him (and it was all kabuki theatre) why not trade him at the deadline rather than waste everyone's time and effort going through the motions?

It's not like letting Pascal walk is going to free up loads of cap space and, even if it did, who are they going to sign? Ujiri has always operated above the cap for a reason. If Siakam's value is so low that there is no trade that has any value for Toronto that's squarely on this front office for waiting to trade a 3-month rental.

Yeah I'm wondering if Fred is embellishing in his Woj interview about energy being different and Masai not "buttering" him up.

Or they just misread the market and assumed Harden was going to Houston

[golden]

Saying more or less that management is incompetent is a bit too easy of an answer isn't it? I think we can all agree Masai is pretty good at his job, so there has to be something else motivating their actions/non-actions. Only thing I can come up with is that maybe they are prioritizing cap space more than attainable assets via a trade? Makes a bit of sense if they are targeting players that fit with Scottie's timeline because he's probably going to be too good to surround with super young players that need development. Players they can target with cap space should be know commodities if they're up for a new contract.

Nobody said incompetent. The team is still mid, which is perfectly fine for most franchises.

The point is that Masai & Bobby were high-risk takers before the chip and have become risk-averse since the chip. It's pretty simple and obvious for all to see. There are consquences to being risk-averse, because the NBA is a zero-sum game.... somebody's gotta win and somebody's gotta lose. And if your competition is hungrier than you, some will gradually gain on and surpass you.

[DanH]

Nobody said incompetent. The team is still mid, which is perfectly fine for most franchises.

The point is that Masai & Bobby were high-risk takers before the chip and have become risk-averse since the chip. It's pretty simple and obvious for all to see. There are consquences to being risk-averse, because the NBA is a zero-sum game.... somebody's gotta win and somebody's gotta lose. And if your competition is hungrier than you, some will gradually gain on and surpass you.

I don't know if it's risk averse. Most would describe trading a 1st with pretty light protection for Jak as risky. Basically everyone on draft night thought Scottie was a big risk pick versus the safer consensus in Suggs.

I think what we're seeing here is the reality of a post-chip timeline. We're not in big swing territory yet. I'd also say that for the most part, the front office could be described as relatively low risk leading up to the championship until they saw a big risk with a high enough reward. Constantly rolling back the same core for years, while fans called out an obvious playoff ceiling, even not changing coaches, making smaller if still significant trades like adding Ibaka... And then finally when the time was right making the big risky moves in Kawhi and eventually Gasol.

We're very early in that process now. Hard to contrast it with the "pre-chip" front office because everyone just remembers the immediate lead up to the chip rather than the many years of relative patience before that. Yes, those teams had more success than this one does at the moment (though worth noting the 48 win season this core put together pretty recently would have been in line with the start of that team's success too), but we shouldn't pretend the Raps were making big risk moves. Heck, the biggest risks they took in the We the North ramp up probably involved letting their own players get to UFA, risking losing them for nothing, re-signing some of them and letting others walk. Sound familiar?

[LJ2]

Again, though, they tried to re-sign Fred. It wasn't like they just said adios. And if they never intended to re-sign him (and it was all kabuki theatre) why not trade him at the deadline rather than waste everyone's time and effort going through the motions?

It's not like letting Pascal walk is going to free up loads of cap space and, even if it did, who are they going to sign? Ujiri has always operated above the cap for a reason. If Siakam's value is so low that there is no trade that has any value for Toronto that's squarely on this front office for waiting to trade a 3-month rental.

They weren't going over a certain threshold and Fred makes it sound like they weren't too concerned if he wasn't happy about their offer or not, in the Woj interview. Really does sound like they were prepared for him to walk and it's shaping up the same way for Pascal.

If Pascal walks and you're left with Jak, Scottie and Dennis then you've got to fill the missing spots with shooters. Maybe they bring back OG and try and overpay someone like Malik Monk, Lonnie Walker or Buddy Hield on short term contracts to persuade them to cross the border?

[LJ2]

Nobody said incompetent. The team is still mid, which is perfectly fine for most franchises.

The point is that Masai & Bobby were high-risk takers before the chip and have become risk-averse since the chip. It's pretty simple and obvious for all to see. There are consquences to being risk-averse, because the NBA is a zero-sum game.... somebody's gotta win and somebody's gotta lose. And if your competition is hungrier than you, some will gradually gain on and surpass you.

Before the chip they were a 50 win team on top of their division every season and trying to make a breakthrough in the playoffs. That's generally when managements start taking risks, no? Up to that point teams are typically just trying to get all their ducks in a row.

[golden]

I don't know if it's risk averse. Most would describe trading a 1st with pretty light protection for Jak as risky. Basically everyone on draft night thought Scottie was a big risk pick versus the safer consensus in Suggs.

I think what we're seeing here is the reality of a post-chip timeline. We're not in big swing territory yet. I'd also say that for the most part, the front office could be described as relatively low risk leading up to the championship until they saw a big risk with a high enough reward. Constantly rolling back the same core for years, while fans called out an obvious playoff ceiling, even not changing coaches, making smaller if still significant trades like adding Ibaka... And then finally when the time was right making the big risky moves in Kawhi and eventually Gasol.

We're very early in that process now. Hard to contrast it with the "pre-chip" front office because everyone just remembers the immediate lead up to the chip rather than the many years of relative patience before that. Yes, those teams had more success than this one does at the moment (though worth noting the 48 win season this core put together pretty recently would have been in line with the start of that team's success too), but we shouldn't pretend the Raps were making big risk moves. Heck, the biggest risks they took in the We the North ramp up probably involved letting their own players get to UFA, risking losing them for nothing, re-signing some of them and letting others walk. Sound familiar?

Trading a first round pick for a veteran, to try and lock in a play-in/playoff floor team, is exactly the opposite of risky.

The far riskier move is trading the veteran for a pick or prospect and lowering the short-term floor.

WeTheNorth started by trading Bargs and Rudy Gay, lest we forget. Those were expected to be tanking and rebuild moves.

Risk is one of those words that can be easily used out of context.

[DanH]

Trading a first round pick for a veteran, to try and lock in a play-in/playoff floor team, is exactly the opposite of risky.

The far riskier move is trading the veteran for a pick or prospect and lowering the short-term floor.

Risk is one of those words that can be easily used out of context.

There's basically no risk to rebuilding. You get ownership to buy into a lengthy period of suck and you get rid of your talented players. Like, zero risk. Except like a half decade down the line when you still suck.

Trading assets to be good has inherent in it the risk that you might not be good.

[chris]

Again, though, they tried to re-sign Fred. It wasn't like they just said adios. And if they never intended to re-sign him (and it was all kabuki theatre) why not trade him at the deadline rather than waste everyone's time and effort going through the motions?

It's not like letting Pascal walk is going to free up loads of cap space and, even if it did, who are they going to sign? Ujiri has always operated above the cap for a reason. If Siakam's value is so low that there is no trade that has any value for Toronto that's squarely on this front office for waiting to trade a 3-month rental.

think they pretty clearly did want fred back, just for less than what houston was willing to pay him and they also wanted fred to buy into the direction the team was headed (scottie). that's what i take from his comments and how the trade deadline/free aggency shook out

[G____Deane]

Probably the most cogent comment you've ever made. Thanks

Update: I can't wait until we're closer to our next contention window and you to get say, see, I said Masai needs to "do better" and he's doing better! That's what I said he should do! What Analysis!

Just wave the white flag and stop digging deeper, you just sound ridiculous. Masai has to do better, now and in the recent post-chip past. That's not in dispute for any fan with their eyes open and their head not up their behind. Vitually everone is saying the same thing (look right above all over this thread) and you just keep repeating nonsense tiling at windmillsin your never ending quest to defend management's historical past.

You're the only one saying Masai has done a great job in the last couple of years. Wake up.

[DanH]

think they pretty clearly did want fred back, just for less than what houston was willing to pay him and they also wanted fred to buy into the direction the team was headed (scottie). that's what i take from his comments and how the trade deadline/free aggency shook out

Yeah, the vision was clearly for Scottie to be taking primary creator duties, so Fred's value had a ceiling on it they wouldn't go above (which was likely a reasonable ceiling anyway, but it just takes one). Which is also where the Schroder frustration comes from - I don't think taking the ball out of Scottie's hands was what the front office had in mind bringing him in.

Definitely discussions happening internally on whether there is a similar concern with Pascal. OG less so, his value derives almost entirely off ball so that's perfect.

Going to be a fascinating lead up to the trade deadline.

[Kagemusha]

Going to be a fascinating lead up to the trade deadline.

Yeah, trade deadlines should be a Canadian stat holiday.
Everyone tune in and watch nothing happen. LOL

[Primer]

think they pretty clearly did want fred back, just for less than what houston was willing to pay him and they also wanted fred to buy into the direction the team was headed (scottie). that's what i take from his comments and how the trade deadline/free aggency shook out

We were banking on Houston getting Harden and Fred having no other suitors so we could get him at a reasonable price. Obviously once Udoka said no to Harden they threw the bank at Fred and the rest is history.