Raptors 2014 Free Agency: non-Raptors thread

[mcHAPPY]

That's what makes it an almost. The main bit being overpaying a non-star wing player with the primary intent being the impact on their original team rather than the impact on your own (which would be secondary in both cases).

You think a 16pt, 6reb, 4ast wing who shoots 47/37/75 and has shown considerable growth in each of first 3 seasons is comparable to an 8pt, 6.5reb, 2ast wing I who shot 53/25/56 and showed considerable regression between season 1 and 2? Or at least "almost"?

You think keeping a past prime Steve Nash away from Melo, broken down amare, and chandler is comparable as keeping prime parsons away from a young team like Houston with 2 all-nba players in starting lineup and chance to add another Allstar on top of it? Or at least "almost"?

In detouring my original point you found Crazytown.

[imanshumpert]

You think a 16pt, 6reb, 4ast wing who shoots 47/37/75 and has shown considerable growth in each of first 3 seasons is comparable to an 8pt, 6.5reb, 2ast wing I who shot 53/25/56 and showed considerable regression between season 1 and 2? Or at least "almost"?

You think keeping a past prime Steve Nash away from Melo, broken down amare, and chandler is comparable as keeping prime parsons away from a young team like Houston with 2 all-nba players in starting lineup and chance to add another Allstar on top of it? Or at least "almost"?

In detouring my original point you found Crazytown.

What's your problem? No need to start hurling insults and calling people crazy.

Both Parsons and Fields are/were being severely overpaid in order to try and screw over their previous team/prevent them from signing someone. Obviously Parsons right now is better than Fields was with the Knicks, but we're also talking about very different dollar amounts. A 5-5-8 cap hit for the Knicks versus potentially 14-14-14-14 for the Mavericks.

In BC's mind, yes keeping Nash away from Melo was similar to the current situation of keeping Bosh away from Houston. Let's not forget that BC considered Nash to still be an all-star caliber player (Nash was still putting up 13-11 on 50-40-90 btw, which is arguably better production than Bosh had last year) which is why he offered him 12 freaking million a year at age 37 (Nash actually made the all-star team in 2011-12 though).

[mcHAPPY]

What's your problem? No need to start hurling insults and calling people crazy.

Both Parsons and Fields are/were being severely overpaid in order to try and screw over their previous team/prevent them from signing someone. Obviously Parsons right now is better than Fields was with the Knicks, but we're also talking about very different dollar amounts. A 5-5-8 cap hit for the Knicks versus potentially 14-14-14-14 for the Mavericks.

In BC's mind, yes keeping Nash away from Melo was similar to the current situation of keeping Bosh away from Houston. Let's not forget that BC considered Nash to still be an all-star caliber player (Nash was still putting up 13-11 on 50-40-90 btw, which is arguably better production than Bosh had last year) which is why he offered him 12 freaking million a year at age 37 (Nash actually made the all-star team in 2011-12 though).

What's your problem?

$14m now?

Keep upping those numbers.

[imanshumpert]

What's your problem?

$14m now?

Keep upping those numbers.

I'm just quoting Dan

Sure, but it's not just a matter of signing him to an offer sheet - it's a matter of signing him to a ridiculous offer sheet that Morey wouldn't match - and who knows where that line is? So to make sure you screw them and aren't just wasting 3 days of cap room for yourself, gotta go real high, and then you end up giving Parsons 13-14M per year and you are the one who gets screwed.

And what you originally said about 12M a year would still result in an average of over 13M per year.

Year 1: 12M
Year 2: 12.9M
Year 3: 13.8M
Year 4: 14.7M
AVE: 13.35M

[mcHAPPY]

I'm just quoting Dan



And what you originally said about 12M a year would still result in an average of over 13M per year.

Year 1: 12M
Year 2: 12.9M
Year 3: 13.8M
Year 4: 14.7M
AVE: 13.35M

Much like calling anyone crazy, where did I make any reference to annual raises?

You need to work on your reading comprehension and quitting typing words and ideas you believe I'm typing and saying.

[DanH]

Much like calling anyone crazy, where did I make any reference to annual raises?

You need to work on your reading comprehension and quitting typing words and ideas you believe I'm typing and saying.

Well, you also ignored the context of where I placed that number. How do the Mavs know what number is high enough to make HOU flinch? They have to overshoot by a lot to make sure. Just like with Fields. At 12M is Parsons really that overpaid? I fully expect HOU would match. At his max salary? That'll probably do it.

Anyway, it's not about the individual players or the annual pay or the team they were on. It's the exact same strategy - and as I said, the differences are in the details, thus why I included the "almost." The strategy is to deliberately overpay a RFA in order to screw up what another team is trying to do, rather than because you actually want said RFA. The upside with Parsons is clearly higher than the upside with Fields was, but hence the higher base salary. And that's not the point - the point is the strategy is fundamentally flawed, which is why regardless of the quality of player you are doing this with, you are very likely to get bit.

[mcHAPPY]

Well, you also ignored the context of where I placed that number. How do the Mavs know what number is high enough to make HOU flinch? They have to overshoot by a lot to make sure. Just like with Fields. At 12M is Parsons really that overpaid? I fully expect HOU would match. At his max salary? That'll probably do it.

Anyway, it's not about the individual players or the annual pay or the team they were on. It's the exact same strategy - and as I said, the differences are in the details, thus why I included the "almost." The strategy is to deliberately overpay a RFA in order to screw up what another team is trying to do, rather than because you actually want said RFA. The upside with Parsons is clearly higher than the upside with Fields was, but hence the higher base salary. And that's not the point - the point is the strategy is fundamentally flawed, which is why regardless of the quality of player you are doing this with, you are very likely to get bit.

The context is in support of your own narrative you've developed above and beyond my original point.

The merits of the strategy I laid out are debatable. However, I respect your point of view as I always do.

As an aside, would you rather pay parsons $12m or deng? Deng is angling for $12 and to be honest id pay parsons that before deng. Obviously everything depends on parsons agreeing to sign an offer sheet.

[Letter N]

Well, you also ignored the context of where I placed that number. How do the Mavs know what number is high enough to make HOU flinch? They have to overshoot by a lot to make sure. Just like with Fields. At 12M is Parsons really that overpaid? I fully expect HOU would match. At his max salary? That'll probably do it.

Anyway, it's not about the individual players or the annual pay or the team they were on. It's the exact same strategy - and as I said, the differences are in the details, thus why I included the "almost." The strategy is to deliberately overpay a RFA in order to screw up what another team is trying to do, rather than because you actually want said RFA. The upside with Parsons is clearly higher than the upside with Fields was, but hence the higher base salary. And that's not the point - the point is the strategy is fundamentally flawed, which is why regardless of the quality of player you are doing this with, you are very likely to get bit.

Wouldn't the strategy be to offer a price that Houston WILL match?

Because if they offer 14M for Parsons Houston will just say that's too much, not match and still have all their money for Bosh/Melo/etc.
But if they offer Parsons 11-12M, Houston is forced to match then Houston no longer has that money to play with in FA, whereas if they signed Parsons last Houston could use his Bird Rights to go above the cap.

I think the best strategy for Mavs is to find a price point that Parson's agent wants but is also in the range that would make the Rockets match.

[DanH]

Wouldn't the strategy be to offer a price that Houston WILL match?

Because if they offer 14M for Parsons Houston will just say that's too much, not match and still have all their money for Bosh/Melo/etc.
But if they offer Parsons 11-12M, Houston is forced to match then Houston no longer has that money to play with in FA, whereas if they signed Parsons last Houston could use his Bird Rights to go above the cap.

I think the best strategy for Mavs is to find a price point that Parson's agent wants but is also in the range that would make the Rockets match.

Sure, if Parsons wants to screw HOU over. There is no evidence he does. More likely there is an understanding between HOU and Parsons that either they will offer him an equivalent deal to be signed moments after they sign Bosh (for example), or if he is out of their price range, they will let him go. So if DAL is going to offer an amount HOU will match, why wouldn't Parsons just go to HOU and get a 5th year added to that same salary, and get to play with Bosh and stay with his original team? It is in everyone's best interest to have an arrangement like this.

[DanH]

I looked at it more of sabotaging Houston.

Morey has reportedly been quite smug with his peers in recent years.

In particular with Dallas, they called last year to try and trade for Dirk after they landed Howard - who Dallas also tried to get.

If that offer sheet can be delivered before Houston signs a players like Bosh then the Rockets will lose the cap space or Parsons.

The context is in support of your own narrative you've developed above and beyond my original point.

The merits of the strategy I laid out are debatable. However, I respect your point of view as I always do.

As an aside, would you rather pay parsons $12m or deng? Deng is angling for $12 and to be honest id pay parsons that before deng. Obviously everything depends on parsons agreeing to sign an offer sheet.

That was your point. My point was that your entire point rests on the premise that not only does DAL want to screw HOU over, but so does Parsons, and there's no reason to think that.

If your point is that DAL's hope is to screw HOU by making them choose between Parsons and cap space, then my counterpoint stands. All evidence suggests that they have no realistic way to do that except by taking Parsons on themselves at a very overpaid contract amount. As such, their goal is much more likely simply to steal away Parsons for themselves (as the end goal) rather than playing games with HOU and screwing them over. Supporting the original post you replied to that teams are simply moving on to other free agency targets rather than waiting for the Heatles.

Oh, and I would far rather have Parsons at 12 than Deng. I'm kind of scared of Deng - could see a big drop off from him outside of Thib's system, and as he gets older (already has very old legs). I assume DAL would as well, which is their motive for trying to sign him.

[mcHAPPY]

That was your point. My point was that your entire point rests on the premise that not only does DAL want to screw HOU over, but so does Parsons, and there's no reason to think that.

If your point is that DAL's hope is to screw HOU by making them choose between Parsons and cap space, then my counterpoint stands. All evidence suggests that they have no realistic way to do that except by taking Parsons on themselves at a very overpaid contract amount. As such, their goal is much more likely simply to steal away Parsons for themselves (as the end goal) rather than playing games with HOU and screwing them over. Supporting the original post you replied to that teams are simply moving on to other free agency targets rather than waiting for the Heatles.

Oh, and I would far rather have Parsons at 12 than Deng. I'm kind of scared of Deng - could see a big drop off from him outside of Thib's system, and as he gets older (already has very old legs). I assume DAL would as well, which is their motive for trying to sign him.

In the age of players taking less than market value to win could parsons not be trying to sabotage the rockets but rather getting what he feels is his fair market value?

[ebrian]

We are all pretty familiar with the cap in the NBA at 63.3.. What is the floor ?

Edit-- I looked it up with Larry Coon FAQ. Says 52.8M this year.
Sure looks like the magic even after that 4 year 32M have some more salaries to add. Almost 20m ??. Perhaps they could use Chuck and Landry for one of Harris / Harkless and a future 1st round pick.

Player 2014/2015
Jameer Nelson Waived $2,000,000
Arron Afflalo Traded
1 Evan Fournier From Denver $1,483,920
Hidayet Turkoglu * N/A
2 Victor Oladipo $4,978,200
3 Al Harrington * $3,804,900
Quentin Richardson N/A
4 Jason Maxiell $2,500,000
5 Maurice Harkless $1,887,840
6 Nikola Vucevic $2,751,260
7 Tobias Harris $2,380,594
8 Andrew Nicholson $1,545,840
9 Ronnie Price $1,316,809
10 E'Twaun Moore $1,148,163
11 Channing frye $8,000,000
12 Kyle O'Quinn $915,243
13 Aaron Gordon at 120% $3,992,040
14 Dewayne Dedmon $300,000 $816,482
15 Elfrid Payon at 120% $2,164,080
Total salaries: $41,685,371

Coon said $52.8 last year. It's always 90% of the cap. So this season it should be $57M.

Orlando has 15 players and they're only at $41.7M? What gives?

[DanH]

In the age of players taking less than market value to win could parsons not be trying to sabotage the rockets but rather getting what he feels is his fair market value?

HOU has plenty of ability to give him said market value so long as they work together. If he takes market value in a cheap ploy like an offer sheet signed at midnight, odds are he's doing it for a non-playoff team.

HOU's situation is so good precisely because they can afford to go shopping in free agency and still make a fair market value deal with Parsons. It is in everyone's interest for him to find out what offers are out there and simply inform HOU, at which point HOU either lets him go (he agrees in principle with the other team, HOU pulls his QO so it doesn't impact their cap space) or they keep him (he agrees in principle with HOU, and only signs after the cap space is used).

I don't see how playing the game with Dallas would benefit Parsons at all.

[Heatdreamer]

We should trade for mike dunleavy for the TPE , Chicago wants to open cap space after they amnesty Boozer, so they can pursue a SF starter.

[DanH]

Coon said $52.8 last year. It's always 90% of the cap. So this season it should be $57M.

Orlando has 15 players and they're only at $41.7M? What gives?

Nothing gives. At the end of the year, if they haven't upped their total paid salary to the floor, they just top up all of their players the extra cash.