Game 18: Toronto Raptors @ Golden State Warriors - Sunday Nov 21st 8:30pm ET - Sportsnet

[golden]

Yeah you overrate that stat.

Bucks for years had amazing DRTG but everybody knew once you make right adjustments their defense doesn't become effective.

Sure, Bucks were an amazing regular season team for years. And the Bucks did figure out how to make that system work in the playoffs, without having to bench Lopez, so that's kind of a bad example. It was almost a perfectly executed multi-year build-up and realization of their successful regular season system.

Let's face it... you'd be ecstatic if the Raptors were amazing fool's gold regular season team this year. That's how the WeTheNorth era started.

lol. I'm not overrating any stat. I'm just reporting the results.

[MixxAOR]

Absolutely... Knicks have to evaluate which guys can fit their scheme and if they want to prioritize offense over defense now. They might have to adjust.

But there are other factors people don't talk think about in pro sports.... it's a tough ask to make guys sacrifice and play un-selfish, committed defense, year-after-year. You need guys who are trying to prove themselves and are willing to sacrifice numbers. Contract status, pecking order, salaries and other expectations all factor into all of it.

You get rid of those guys. You can't win with mediocrity

[golden]

Look at Thibs and his Knicks. Last year they had league-best defense and this year not so much. What happened? Did Thibs abandon his scheme? Or added a bunch of guys who can't play defense like Fournier and Kemba.

Absolutely... Knicks have to evaluate which guys can fit their scheme and if they want to prioritize offense over defense now. They might have to adjust.

But there are other factors people don't talk think about in pro sports.... it's a tough ask to make guys sacrifice and play un-selfish, committed defense, year-after-year. You need guys who are trying to prove themselves and are willing to sacrifice numbers. Contract status, pecking order, salaries and other expectations all factor into all of it.

[MixxAOR]

lol. Don't should the messenger or the stat, man. DRTG, ORTG and NETRG just tell you how effective the teams are. It correlates very well to wins and losses. It's just another way of saying points for and against, except adjusting for pace. There's no interpretation or emotion in it... it's just a tabulation and actually is the scroll of truth.

But agreed.... it is for this point in the season. So at this point of the season our defense is sh*t, and has been getting worse. That's true also. Question is: why?

Yeah you overrate that stat.

Bucks for years had amazing DRTG but everybody knew once you make right adjustments their defense doesn't become effective.

[golden]

maybe because that stat is trash? you keep using it like it's scroll of truth. That shit fluctuates throughout the season.

lol. Don't should the messenger or the stat, man. DRTG, ORTG and NETRG just tell you how effective the teams are. It correlates very well to wins and losses. It's just another way of saying points for and against, except adjusting for pace. There's no interpretation or emotion in it... it's just a tabulation and actually is the scroll of truth.

But agreed.... it is for this point in the season. So at this point of the season our defense is sh*t, and has been getting worse. That's true also. Question is: why?

[MixxAOR]

Look at Thibs and his Knicks. Last year they had league-best defense and this year not so much. What happened? Did Thibs abandon his scheme? Or added a bunch of guys who can't play defense like Fournier and Kemba.

[MixxAOR]

Sure, but our defense has slipped to a pace that would put us 39th out of 30 teams.... if you want to start using extreme examples. What type of "communicator" do we need to get us back to even middle of the pack? Sounds like a lot of excuses, tbh.

I mean Wizards are starting Kuzma and Beal and they are 6th in DRTG. Harden and the Nets are 7th with a past-prime Blake Griffin as their anchor. Empty stats, no defense, poster boys (DD/Lavine) and the Bulls are 9th.

maybe because that stat is trash? you keep using it like it's scroll of truth. That shit fluctuates throughout the season.

[golden]

Championships don't grow on trees either.

Gasol and Lowry set the standard. Can't match it? Then you are out of here.

Sure, but our defense has slipped to a pace that would put us 39th out of 30 teams.... if you want to start using extreme examples. What type of "communicator" do we need to get us back to even middle of the pack? Sounds like a lot of excuses, tbh.

I mean Wizards are starting Kuzma and Beal and they are 6th in DRTG. Harden and the Nets are 7th with a past-prime Blake Griffin as their anchor. Empty stats, no defense, poster boys (DD/Lavine) and the Bulls are 9th.

[MixxAOR]

There's no shortcuts to championships. No clever scheme. No tricks or gimmicks. This will take years. It will take time for this team to become contender again.

[MixxAOR]

Lowrys and Gasols don't grow on trees. Does this mean we are going to suck at defense until we acquire one of those guys? Or hope that FVV & Birch develop into those type of guys.

I mean, FVV said he thinks he should have made All-Defense last year. He should be ready, no? He's the obvious guy for the Lowry role, assuming Lowry truly was a a defensive anchor/communicator. I don't really recall that.

Gasol was a former DPOY and one of the most intelligent defensive players of all time. Is that what we need to make this defense work? lol.

Championships don't grow on trees either.

Gasol and Lowry set the standard. Can't match it? Then you are out of here.

We know we need a guy like Kawhi to carry us offensively in order to win our next championships. Why are we going to make compromises defensively?

[A.I]

Lowrys and Gasols don't grow on trees. Does this mean we are going to suck at defense until we acquire one of those guys? Or hope that FVV & Birch develop into those type of guys.

I mean, FVV said he thinks he should have made All-Defense last year. He should be ready, no? He's the obvious guy for the Lowry role, assuming Lowry truly was a a defensive anchor/communicator. I don't really recall that.

Gasol was a former DPOY and one of the most intelligent defensive players of all time. Is that what we need to make this defense work? lol.

Just because you are a good individual defender doesn't mean you're a good communicator. OG is probably the biggest example of that. Freddy is still growing in his leadership role.

As I said, they weren't bad defensively to start the season, even won 5 games in a row. Its the last several where they slipped. Specifically the Utah, Portland and Detroit games.

[golden]

Thats where the problem is I think. Communication and not helping each other. The scheme is fine, its the execution. You can go double a ball handler, but there were many times 2 of our players ran at one of theirs catching a pass, then they swung the ball to the open guy. Thats a miscommunication error.

This isn't some new scheme Nurse is using this season, its what the Raptors have done since he became head coach, difference is we don't have Gasol or Lowry anymore. Raptors have been a very good defensive team every year except this season, although they started out decent this season, slipped the last several games.

Lowrys and Gasols don't grow on trees. Does this mean we are going to suck at defense until we acquire one of those guys? Or hope that FVV & Birch develop into those type of guys.

I mean, FVV said he thinks he should have made All-Defense last year. He should be ready, no? He's the obvious guy for the Lowry role, assuming Lowry truly was a a defensive anchor/communicator. I don't really recall that.

Gasol was a former DPOY and one of the most intelligent defensive players of all time. Is that what we need to make this defense work? lol.

[A.I]

Well on the bright side, that was probably going to be the most difficult team to guard with this defensive scheme. GSW don't hesitate to swing the ball and everyone on the perimeter can shoot well. They have a tonne of trust in each other to make the right pass and for the open shooter to make the shot. Our defenders have to equally have a tonne of trust in each other to rotate, and help the helper. Guarding that is just so damn difficult.

Thats where the problem is I think. Communication and not helping each other. The scheme is fine, its the execution. You can go double a ball handler, but there were many times 2 of our players ran at one of theirs catching a pass, then they swung the ball to the open guy. Thats a miscommunication error.

This isn't some new scheme Nurse is using this season, its what the Raptors have done since he became head coach, difference is we don't have Gasol or Lowry anymore. Raptors have been a very good defensive team every year except this season, although they started out decent this season, slipped the last several games.

[saints91]

We’re a young team, I don’t think anyone here said we were going to win a championship. We’ll have trouble against the upper echelon teams, but as long as we are developing, improving and learning we’re headed in the right direction.

The losses that piss me off are the ones we should win.


Miami, Nets, Warriors, Lakers, Bucks, Denver, Utah, and maybe Portland and Phoenix are the teams that I don’t expect to beat, but anything can happen. All the other teams I think we are capable of beating if we’re not beating ourselves.

[golden]

Who knows what could have happened in the playoffs last year had we not talked, weak teams and injuries were abound. The only unknown wildcard was siakams injury, but who even knows if that happens if they had not tanked.

Your argument is fatally flawed, without Siakam and fvv its lowry who still isn't a champion, and kawhi would have lost too. By your argument, all champions are not champions without other players, meaning none are anymore. It's a team game. I mean by your arguement kawhi wasn't really a champion since he had Duncan and Parker and ginoboli ..... ...

Well, it was Mixx who made the statement "real champions", but I think we all get the point unless we're in denial, which is: real superstars, like Kawhi and Lebron, can drag role players like JR Smith, Tristan Thompson, Delly and Mosgov to championships. And even if you swap TT/JR for different role players, Kawhi and Lebron are still legit contenders, much of the time.

It's basic supply and demand: there are more JR Smiths and TTs, i.e. potential championship caliber role players, than there are Kawhis and Lebrons.