The Lottery

[magoon]

I just took a quick look at that site and this trade idea was being discussed :

LA: Melo + #4
NY: #2

What do you guys think ?

I think Knicks fans have completely turned on Melo and that's an idiotic trade. LA would agree to that before Phil Jackson finished the sentence.

[magoon]

DeMar is going to be much harder to move now because PLAYER OPTION. He would basically need to sign off on where he wants to go. Do you give up a top ten pick for a guy who can fuck off at a moments notice?

DeMar will exercise his player option, that's a given, but any team trading for him will do it because they think they can re-sign him next year. That's why Cleveland traded for Kevin Love this year and why Portland traded for Aaron Afflalo.

If the Knicks think that DeMar+Melo+Two Other Pretty Great Players is a playoff contender, they'll do it, because in the NBA it's always easier to re-sign your own guys. They already live in your city, they're used to it, it's their home now. Players hate having to move just as much as everybody else does, and then on top of that their current team can offer them more money and more years. And of course, New York IS New York. That matters.

[Mediumcore]

Raptors are at opposite spectrum of those need/want to win teams in my opinion.

Masai has 2 years of 'success' to evaluate what he has. Clearly this team has a ceiling and I believe it has been reached. I don't think you continue to plow ahead just to make the playoffs - unless you are Milwaukee former owner. Also, how is this team going to get better while maintaining its core? They are either going to give up depth or continue to lack talent in the starting lineup which ever way they choose without a trade of one of JV-DD-KL.

Looking at Boston and Milwaukee, they are very young and improving while already a playoff team and their young players have a lot of upside yet to be tapped.

The other teams though are either trying to get back to playoffs after unfortunate injuries or are trying to get there for first time in a long time.

Masai worked with what he had - that was the result of the last 2 years. He has never taken a step back nor has he really made the starting lineup his own.

I could argue that Masai is in the third year and needs to show progress in winning a championship which is the very reason why the team needs to take a step back in the short term. Like I said, I believe this team has reached its ceiling - especially with Casey continuing at the helm.

I agree with much of what you are saying...the team is flawed and has a ceiling which I would argue is as high as the 2nd round of the playoffs if we could get 2 of our 5 starters to contibute anything of significance.

But my point was that there has to be some sort of pressure on MU to improve on the last two seasons since he is in year 3 of his plan to make us contenders. To stop the process now is to say his plan was flawed to begin with. Personally, I see trades coming as a much more likely avenue to improvement, over the draft. We are stocked with youth and have Bruno, Bebe, Daniels, and what 3 picks in 2016? We need veteran players to take us further. DD and KL as well as JV and the rest are in play as far as trades go imo, but not for moving up the lottery. Just my perspective.

[magoon]

I wouldn't but it is something that you do see happen some-what regularly.

Personally, Lowry for Stauskas and Thompson without the pick and DD to Charlotte for Lance and Vonleh (no pick) are the trades I stated after the sweep. Both seem more reasonable than the lotto deals getting thrown around.

I think you're severely underpricing both players based on playoff disappointment. DeMar played well in the playoffs and Lowry was hurt, and everybody in the league knows both of those things.

The last star player who was traded during the draft itself for pick(s) was Jrue Holiday in 2013. Holiday cost the Pelicans the #6 pick (Nerlens Noel) plus an additional unprotected first-rounder which eventually became Elfrid Payton (who the Sixers then traded for Dario Saric and a future first-rounder).

Holiday is probably equivalent to Lowry in terms of value. There's your cost estimate for Lowry: two first-round picks, one of which was middle-to-high lottery. This is why the Sacramento deal of Stauskas, #6 and some salary to make the money work (probably Jason Thompson or Darren Collison) makes sense - it's almost exactly the same price as New Orleans paid for Jrue.

(See also: Brooklyn trading three first-rounders and swap rights for two more first rounders for Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Jason Terry. If you want an established star-level player, you have to pay up.)

[Mess]

Was Phil in the building when DD bricked the 360?

[slaw]

Like I said, I believe this team has reached its ceiling - especially with Casey continuing at the helm.

Not saying this is wrong but when your starting frontcourt is Tyler Hansbrough/injured Amir and Terrence Ross, isn't it kind of hard to say that the core of JV/Lowry/Derozan wouldn't be better (maybe even much better) if they had actual starter quality players with them and not two guys who are end of the bench guys and another who can't move?

[McRealistic]

How terrible would it be if MU decide to bring both of DD and KL back this season ?

[mcHAPPY]

Not saying this is wrong but when your starting frontcourt is Tyler Hansbrough/injured Amir and Terrence Ross, isn't it kind of hard to say that the core of JV/Lowry/Derozan wouldn't be better (maybe even much better) if they had actual starter quality players with them and not two guys who are end of the bench guys and another who can't move?

And how do you add to this core?

That is the problem.

The trade pieces are going to return better.

If they use cap space they lose depth.

If they keep main team through bird rights they have the MLE and BAE and minimum contracts....plus whatever internal growth.


Welcome to the ceiling of JV/KL/DD

[mcHAPPY]

I agree with much of what you are saying...the team is flawed and has a ceiling which I would argue is as high as the 2nd round of the playoffs if we could get 2 of our 5 starters to contibute anything of significance.

But my point was that there has to be some sort of pressure on MU to improve on the last two seasons since he is in year 3 of his plan to make us contenders. To stop the process now is to say his plan was flawed to begin with. Personally, I see trades coming as a much more likely avenue to improvement, over the draft. We are stocked with youth and have Bruno, Bebe, Daniels, and what 3 picks in 2016? We need veteran players to take us further. DD and KL as well as JV and the rest are in play as far as trades go imo, but not for moving up the lottery. Just my perspective.

i do not believe this was Masai's plan. The team surprised and overachieved.

I've said this before but masai could put the team right where it would have been had he traded Lowry 2 years ago except he wouldn't have had to go through all the losing. Hopefully KL and DD actually have value now.

Youth is one thing but talent is another. Raps don't have youth and talent in the same players outside of JV. KL and DD are in their prime.

[Primer]

when dreaming up trades you really have to try and imagine why the other team would say yes, and then factor in available options. Do the Kings want Kyle Lowry when Goran Dragic is potentially available? Does NY want DeRozan locked up for 1 year or Afflalo for four? This is why a trade wont likely happen, unless you can tell me a team that needs our guys more than they need their pick, I don't think any picks in the top 6 or 7 get moved. With the cap going up and the 5 year rookie deals locked in their value just went way up

I think most people posting trade ideas have looked at it from the other teams side and posted reasons why they think the other team might accept the trade. Typically, the only ones who provide no reasoning are the people who disagree, merely stating "they'd never do that". So it's a two way street, if you don't think a team would do the trade, you should explain from that teams point of view why they wouldn't do it.

[slaw]

And how do you add to this core?

That is the problem.

The trade pieces are going to return better.

If they use cap space they lose depth.

If they keep main team through bird rights they have the MLE and BAE and minimum contracts....plus whatever internal growth.


Welcome to the ceiling of JV/KL/DD

It's your opinion that you can't really add to this core but it's based on much less than perfect knowledge. I have no idea what specific steps should be taken to improve the team and I'm not going to pretend to play GM cause it's pointless. I don't know what trades are out there. I don't know what the magic beans from a draft might produce. The market is dependent on a myriad of factors I know little to nothing about. Even the GM doesn't know until he starts shopping.

As an aside, the Raptors have been in need of a small forward since Vince Carter left. Is it really that hard to find a serviceable SF? It takes 12 years? Other teams seem to be able to find serviceable guys at decent prices all the time. I don't think it's inconceivable to believe that Ujiri can do the same.

[Axel]

Just for Stauskas and Thompson? Gotta think they can get better return than that for Lowry somewhere.

I'm not convinced. PG market works against us (not a lot of teams with demand, and several comparable options available). Plus, especially with Casey back, the end of season interviews don't bode well for Lowry to return and be a happy camper. I worry that status quo would torpedo his value in the season and think that adding a shooting SG who's just coming off a rookie season, and a PF that could work for us (help in rebounding) to a certain degree isn't bad return on a player that may struggle to really find a landing spot. Best places to trade him to (LA) don't really have assets to make a move (assuming they won't trade their pick).

[Axel]

I think you're severely underpricing both players based on playoff disappointment. DeMar played well in the playoffs and Lowry was hurt, and everybody in the league knows both of those things.

The last star player who was traded during the draft itself for pick(s) was Jrue Holiday in 2013. Holiday cost the Pelicans the #6 pick (Nerlens Noel) plus an additional unprotected first-rounder which eventually became Elfrid Payton (who the Sixers then traded for Dario Saric and a future first-rounder).

Holiday is probably equivalent to Lowry in terms of value. There's your cost estimate for Lowry: two first-round picks, one of which was middle-to-high lottery. This is why the Sacramento deal of Stauskas, #6 and some salary to make the money work (probably Jason Thompson or Darren Collison) makes sense - it's almost exactly the same price as New Orleans paid for Jrue.

(See also: Brooklyn trading three first-rounders and swap rights for two more first rounders for Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Jason Terry. If you want an established star-level player, you have to pay up.)

Jrue Holiday is just 24 and was just 22 at the time of the trade. Not sure that is a fitting comparable for Lowry.

I wish Lowry could net us more, I'm just trying to be more critical and look at it from an outsider perspective. If half the trades that RR posters suggest went through, we'd have the most dominant team ever. I'm ok with going a little too far the other way.

[iblastoff]

Just for Stauskas and Thompson? Gotta think they can get better return than that for Lowry somewhere.

definitely. i dont think lowrys playoff performance decreased his value THAT much. you're basically dumping lowry for a bad contract and a horribly underperforming rookie SG. people thought he was gonna take mclemores starting job. instead hes just known as a teleprompter typo.

[KeonClark]

Was Phil in the building when DD bricked the 360?

Is it still called a "brick" when you miss from 3 inches?