Are we treadmilling?

[KHD]

this is the same for 28 teams. that was the same as the dreams ceiling. wait for the best player to leave. the rockets didn't give up and they were rewarded for their patience.

difference being olajuwon was still one of the greatest players of all time, and demar/lowry are... not.

If the argument is patience, then lets build around the real future of this team, not an ISO-heavy chucker at his worst / foul-dependent pick and roll (who never passes to the roller) slasher at best.

[rocwell]

East has been on the rise. The East was already better than the West this year. Raptors still had a record season.

Are you kidding me? Just wait until teams like Celtics and Sixers explode. Everything will change quickly.

[KHD]

Are you kidding me? Just wait until teams like Celtics and Sixers explode. Knicks too. Everything will change quickly.

considering we had a record season by going 14-2 against BOS / NYK / BRK / PHI, yeah it could get ugly if those teams figure out their shit.

[Miekenstien]

Yes we've had a great season, but can the team realistically get much better compated to the other teams in the conference?

yes. we still need a starting 4 and we have good player development with good young players who are learning and winning.

masai, from his mouth, said that the only thing he can promise us is that we won't be stuck in no mans land. if he thinks casey and/or demar/lowry/scola/pp/ross are causing that. he will move on from them or he is a liar. i don't think he is a liar.

[Miekenstien]

difference being olajuwon was still one of the greatest players of all time, and demar/lowry are... not.

If the argument is patience, then lets build around the real future of this team, not an ISO-heavy chucker at his worst / foul-dependent pick and roll (who never passes to the roller) slasher at best.

has no bearing on the "ceiling" argument when you can't get past the worlds best player until they retire or get injured.

it is an exact parallel.

[Chr1s1anL]

Those guys still aren't better than LeBron and Steph, and take the ball out of Lowry/DeMar's hands. You can't just add their production on top of DeMar's(Lowry can play off-ball), because any possession the ball isn't in DeMar's hands, he isn't effective.

DeMar isn't a great 1st guy on a contender, but he also isn't a great 3rd guy because he needs the ball in his hands. I really think his ceiling is microwave guy off the bench on a contender, because he doesn't really fit any other roles.

How do you know this for a fact? We havent seen DD as anything else other than #1 option. The only thing we have close to that is when Rudy was here. DD actually benefited from not being the main option. He put some good numbers next to Gay before Gay got traded.

[KHD]

yes. we still need a starting 4 and we have good player development with good young players who are learning and winning.

masai, from his mouth, said that the only thing he can promise us is that we won't be stuck in no mans land. if he thinks casey and/or demar/lowry/scola/pp/ross are causing that. he will move on from them or he is a liar. i don't think he is a liar.

one can only hope he really has the authority to make that kind of call though. MLSE would probably rather bank on 50 games and never getting past cleveland than to take the risk and move on from demar/lowry.

his track record speaks for itself, but money talks.

[Chr1s1anL]

yes. we still need a starting 4 and we have good player development with good young players who are learning and winning.

masai, from his mouth, said that the only thing he can promise us is that we won't be stuck in no mans land. if he thinks casey and/or demar/lowry/scola/pp/ross are causing that. he will move on from them or he is a liar. i don't think he is a liar.

+1

[KHD]

has no bearing on the "ceiling" argument when you can't get past the worlds best player until they retire or get injured.

it is an exact parallel.

not really.

but anyways, even if you are willing to be patient and outlast Lebron, Lowry / Demar isn't going to be good enough at that time.
are you saying we shouldn't try to make the team better by moving on from the garbage ISO fest that we normally play?

[Barolt]

How do you know this for a fact? We havent seen DD as anything else other than #1 option. The only thing we have close to that is when Rudy was here. DD actually benefited from not being the main option. He put some good numbers next to Gay before Gay got traded.

That Gay/DeMar offense was awful. Seriously? You're defending THAT?

The reason I don't think DeMar can be an effective #3 option is because you want your third option to be a guy who can spot-up and take advantage of extra defensive attention paid to other guys.

If JV is your main guy, and DeMar is your third option, and JV passes out of a packed post to DeMar spotting up...

DeMar's best way to score is to drive that ball right back into the paint that's full of defenders. Ross is a better option there, or literally anyone who can functionally shoot 3s.

[Scraptor]

DeMar isn't a great 1st guy on a contender, but he also isn't a great 3rd guy because he needs the ball in his hands. I really think his ceiling is microwave guy off the bench on a contender, because he doesn't really fit any other roles.

This is silly. In the playoffs DeMar has shot 13.2% better when Kyle is on the court, 40.5% Kyle on vs 27.3% Kyle off.

Rudy Gay shot 10.2% better with Cousins on the court, 50.9% vs 40.7%, and many would have made the same claim you did--that Gay needs the ball in his hands.

Great players make the game easier for everyone around them.

[rocwell]

This is silly. In the playoffs DeMar has shot 13.2% better when Kyle is on the court, 40.5% Kyle on vs 27.3% Kyle off.

Rudy Gay shot 10.2% better with Cousins on the court, 50.9% vs 40.7%, and many would have made the same claim you did--that Gay needs the ball in his hands.

Great players make the game easier for everyone around them.

!!!.

[Chr1s1anL]

That Gay/DeMar offense was awful. Seriously? You're defending THAT?

The reason I don't think DeMar can be an effective #3 option is because you want your third option to be a guy who can spot-up and take advantage of extra defensive attention paid to other guys.

If JV is your main guy, and DeMar is your third option, and JV passes out of a packed post to DeMar spotting up...

DeMar's best way to score is to drive that ball right back into the paint that's full of defenders. Ross is a better option there, or literally anyone who can functionally shoot 3s.

The offense wasn't good but, DD still showed the capability to play off a #1 option. The reason the offense failed was cause that #1 guy(Rudy Gay) wasnt that good.

No one on this team is good enough to be a #1 guy on a contender. Thats the issue. Raptors need to get a true #1 guy. Lowry/DD/JV are all #2 guys on a Championship team.

[Barolt]

No one on this team is good enough to be a #1 guy on a contender. Thats the issue. Raptors need to get a true #1 guy. Lowry/DD/JV are all #2 guys on a Championship team.

How do you know this with JV? We can say this about DeMar/Lowry, but absolutely cannot say this about JV. Have to let him be more than the #4 option(where he was ridiculously efficient) before we decide he can't be a number 1 option.

[Miekenstien]

not really.

but anyways, even if you are willing to be patient and outlast Lebron, Lowry / Demar isn't going to be good enough at that time.
are you saying we shouldn't try to make the team better by moving on from the garbage ISO fest that we normally play?

sorry but, if jordans dad doesn't die. the dream has 0 rings and michael has 8.

for the bolded. i have never said we shouldn't do what we can to improve. i have also made many suggestions on ways that the offense could be run bettter. i have also said, repeatedly, that i can see us trading demar. i disagree with "blow it up" and i disagree with the idea that we get better by letting demar walk in the summer for nothing. if the idea is long term growth, signing demar is the right move, again if only to be traded when his value naturally goes up during the regular season. we were second in the east, won 56 games, made the conference finals and have 5 years of consistent improvement team wise and player wise. to assume that all of that is done and there is no where to go but down is ludicrous. except for lowry no one is over 30, scola might be back but i doubt it, and his 2 replacements are already being groomed. this program is being built to plug and play at all 5 positions. for the first 5 years casey screamed he wanted vets. now those kids are the vets and we are bringing in new kids.

the future is bright, don't believe the unhype