Game #11: Toronto Raptors 101 - Sacramento Kings 107

[Demographic Shift]

Hindsight is a cop out explanation for a bad judgement call when the results are as predicted.

You are right in saying that Casey made a judgement call, but with the wealth of evidence that has already been presented, it wasn't a particularly good call to make. Really, he played a hunch against the odds and it failed. That is why hindsight is irrelevant imo. So really, Casey demonstrated poor judgement, by either believing the opposite of what many would have predicted or by incorrectly guessing that his hunch would play out. Considering the wealth of blunders and poor game time decisions he has made during his tenure, hard to give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was simply a hunch gone wrong.

But even if all of those things were true, why keep Biyombo in there all that time? Surely at some point while the 10 point lead was evaporating there was opportunity to read the situation and try to remedy it by playing JV. When the game is slipping away, your defence can't get a stop and your offence can't find space, how is it defendable to do nothing? Even if it were JV in and Biyombo on the bench, doing nothing and watching that lead dwindle is bad coaching. The fact that is was Biyombo and for such a long stretch merely exasperates the situation.

I am with you that he played a hunch against the odds.. but to say that it wouldn't work before the event finished is simply a binary yes or no guess. After the events have finished (or in hindsight) you can apply judgement based what actually happened not what you think might happen which makes the premise of using 20/20 hindsight relevant.

Why did he keep BB in there for the full 18 ?
Being stubborn ? JV not feeling good and he told him that ? Felt that with a number of TO's called that would gave Biz time to get his wind ? Kyle and DD said we will get you points if you need them coach ?
Could be anything...and its pretty likely only Casey knows why but we are likely not going to be privy to the answer directly from him.

and its exacerbates.. not exasperates..

[Demographic Shift]

You haven't really countered the arguments at all though. All you've really said is that Casey made some decisions, based on his beliefs, and some of them didn't work out. What's your point? That much was obvious.

That is exactly the discussion premise... That Casey made a decision and it didn't work out...I filled in why he might have made that decision..... How this went sideways into a discussion of JV being not used enough in a macro context and Casey being bereft of any semblance of basketball accumen because he took a risky decision is a byproduct of folks who keep grinding the same axe over and over again...
Its either
a) Casey is a really bad coach and is singularly responsible for everything that ails the Raptors including global warming .
or for a refreshing change of pace
b)DD is singularly responsible for any loss that Casey is not responsible for because he is an inefficient volume scorer who isn't worth the money he wants....

Just went with the flow and gave a contrary view to give the faithful another perspective..

Edit...Here.. just saw this.. The defense rests.
Casey's a terrible coach, worse because everyone knows Biyombo in the fourth will not be just one time. The one time it works will lead to the 10 times it doesn't. Just like Demars bad shots. The small % that works feeds the high % that doesn't.

Just went with the flow and gave a contrary view to give the faithful a.nother perspective..

Then, in a reply to another poster, you said:
Quote Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
he made a decision and stuck with it. Decisions have outcomes and he gets to wear the outcome. The outcome stunk.

You don't really seem to be disagreeing with the impact of his decisions. You even seemed to infer that he should be held accountable for his decisions, based on the outcome of those decisions. Isn't that exactly what is being done here, as a post-game evaluation?

Yes.. your correct.. Casey made a real time in game decision.. it was a risky one that went Pfft.. thats to bad for the team as we lost.. however there is NO guarantee we would have won if he played JV either...I ventured in a post why he might have done it.. You'd have thought I advocated turning babies and puppies into an alternative fuel for luxury cars. So I just took the time to explain why .. and why.. and why again... Glad you got it.. We should be done.

I'm not really even sure what/why you're arguing at all, to be perfectly honest. Or is it just a matter of Casey being an NBA coach and all of us just being lowly fans, who can't possibly be capable of evaluating an NBA basketball game or the coaching decisions made within it?

Not at all. .anyone... fans included .. are free to comment on the outcome of a game and what they think went wrong or right. We are fans after all. As for me its not in my DNA to back away when I think I am right. I feel like Oblio on this board but I say what I think and its not inflamatory for the sake of it...

Look forward to a continued exchange of points of view... and there likely will be as there are 71 to go.
As an aside...Thanks for not trying to convert me to the one true path by calling me foolish or stupid.

[white men can't jump]

Hasnt jvs defense been better than biyombos so far this year? According to statistics at least?

Biyombos d-rating 100
Jv d-rating 101

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

That's bball ref's. Per nba.com Biyombo's at 103.8, while JV's at 96.6.

[Snooch]

Hasnt jvs defense been better than biyombos so far this year? According to statistics at least?

Biyombos d-rating 100
Jv d-rating 101

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

[CalgaryRapsFan]

I seem to be answering most of the fundamental points you folks bring up. You just don't seem to like or give any possible credence to ideas or positions that you don't hold. Lots of Groupthink here. Just trying to give an alternative point of view.
Thanks for your support.

You haven't really countered the arguments at all though. All you've really said is that Casey made some decisions, based on his beliefs, and some of them didn't work out. What's your point? That much was obvious.

Then, in a reply to another poster, you said:

he made a decision and stuck with it. Decisions have outcomes and he gets to wear the outcome. The outcome stunk.

You don't really seem to be disagreeing with the impact of his decisions. You even seemed to infer that he should be held accountable for his decisions, based on the outcome of those decisions. Isn't that exactly what is being done here, as a post-game evaluation?

I'm not really even sure what/why you're arguing at all, to be perfectly honest. Or is it just a matter of Casey being an NBA coach and all of us just being lowly fans, who can't possibly be capable of evaluating an NBA basketball game or the coaching decisions made within it?

[raptors999]

Hindsight is a cop out explanation for a bad judgement call when the results are as predicted.

You are right in saying that Casey made a judgement call, but with the wealth of evidence that has already been presented, it wasn't a particularly good call to make. Really, he played a hunch against the odds and it failed. That is why hindsight is irrelevant imo. So really, Casey demonstrated poor judgement, by either believing the opposite of what many would have predicted or by incorrectly guessing that his hunch would play out. Considering the wealth of blunders and poor game time decisions he has made during his tenure, hard to give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was simply a hunch gone wrong.

But even if all of those things were true, why keep Biyombo in there all that time? Surely at some point while the 10 point lead was evaporating there was opportunity to read the situation and try to remedy it by playing JV. When the game is slipping away, your defence can't get a stop and your offence can't find space, how is it defendable to do nothing? Even if it were JV in and Biyombo on the bench, doing nothing and watching that lead dwindle is bad coaching. The fact that is was Biyombo and for such a long stretch merely exasperates the situation.

Casey's a terrible coach, worse because everyone knows Biyombo in the fourth will not be just one time. The one time it works will lead to the 10 times it doesn't. Just like Demars bad shots. The small % that works feeds the high % that doesn't.

[Axel]

Hindsight is a cop out explanation for a bad judgement call when the results are as predicted.

You are right in saying that Casey made a judgement call, but with the wealth of evidence that has already been presented, it wasn't a particularly good call to make. Really, he played a hunch against the odds and it failed. That is why hindsight is irrelevant imo. So really, Casey demonstrated poor judgement, by either believing the opposite of what many would have predicted or by incorrectly guessing that his hunch would play out. Considering the wealth of blunders and poor game time decisions he has made during his tenure, hard to give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was simply a hunch gone wrong.

But even if all of those things were true, why keep Biyombo in there all that time? Surely at some point while the 10 point lead was evaporating there was opportunity to read the situation and try to remedy it by playing JV. When the game is slipping away, your defence can't get a stop and your offence can't find space, how is it defendable to do nothing? Even if it were JV in and Biyombo on the bench, doing nothing and watching that lead dwindle is bad coaching. The fact that is was Biyombo and for such a long stretch merely exasperates the situation.

[raptors999]

No don't think your taking crazy pills here... Casey just stuck with his decision.

Why didn't he make an adjustment ... is he just stubborn or did he believe his decision would work ? Some think he is incredibly stubborn but regardless he made a decision and stuck with it. Decisions have outcomes and he gets to wear the outcome. The outcome stunk.

Did Biz play 18 straight minutes.. Yes he did.. He did however get some time to recuperate ...with all the timeouts but it is an unusual move.

Is he an idiot ? My view is probably not. Others vehemently disagree but they are just rabid fans like yourself and myself blowing off a little steam at a tough loss.

If this was just a bad decision in the 11th game of the season nobody would care. Every coach is trying thing early. Casey on the other hand isn't trying things. Biz killing the offense late will continue to haunt the team all season and in the playoffs if they get that far.

[Demographic Shift]

I'm pretty much okay with how many minutes JV's playing right now. I'm not okay with how much he plays in the 4th quarter.

Yeah I too would like to see him play more time in the 4th...
To me
JV = Offense and Some Defense \
Biz = Limited to No Offense, Good Defense\

Dwane has to find the balance in his application of playing time for them in the 4th ....its not a black and white answer... but my view is that with JV being an overall better player you'd believe he will see more crunch time than Biz will. That said.. mileage may differ in actual field use. :-)

[Demographic Shift]

You seem to be missing the fundamental points that everybody arguing with you has been making, myself included.

1. Biyombo played for nearly 18 straight minutes, including the first 11:30 of the 4th quarter. It doesn't matter who the player is, nobody should play for that long, simply because they're going to be gassed and ineffective.

2. Biyombo was not doing a good job defending Cousins; certainly no better than JV's defense on Cousins. Watch the game, check the box score, do whatever you need to do, but every shred of evidence will support this.

3. Per the bolded part, a big reason for that is because when Biyombo is on the court, the Raptors are essentially playing 4-on-5 on the offensive end.


Casey's coaching decisions were directly (keeping an ineffective Biyombo on for 18 straight minutes) and indirectly (directing/causing/allowing DeRozan to turn team play into hero-ball for the last 6 minutes of the game, starting with a 10 point lead) the cause for the Raptors loss.

I seem to be answering most of the fundamental points you folks bring up. You just don't seem to like or give any possible credence to ideas or positions that you don't hold. Lots of Groupthink here. Just trying to give an alternative point of view.
Thanks for your support.

[Demographic Shift]

But he had soo much time to see that it wasn't working. Am I taking crazy pills here??? Biyombo was in for 18 minutes straight and he had the last 8 mins to see that he wasn't working. I mean, you HAVE to make an adjustment there or you deserve to called an idiot.

No don't think your taking crazy pills here... Casey just stuck with his decision.

Why didn't he make an adjustment ... is he just stubborn or did he believe his decision would work ? Some think he is incredibly stubborn but regardless he made a decision and stuck with it. Decisions have outcomes and he gets to wear the outcome. The outcome stunk.

Did Biz play 18 straight minutes.. Yes he did.. He did however get some time to recuperate ...with all the timeouts but it is an unusual move.

Is he an idiot ? My view is probably not. Others vehemently disagree but they are just rabid fans like yourself and myself blowing off a little steam at a tough loss.

[hotfuzz]

Guys, we're 5-0. It's all good.

24-7. Best record in franchise history! It's all good.

[Nilanka]

Guys, we're 5-0. It's all good.

[hotfuzz]

My thoughts were that Casey made a coaching decision in real time that in hindsight didn't work out. Lots of in game decisions are made in every game in every sport. Some work out some don't.

I am not saying I know for a dead solid fact that this is what went through his mind but this is a possible explanation.
He gambled that he was up 10 with 6 or 7 to play and that he would use BB and his remaining fouls (and Caseys perceived view at that time in the game that BB provided better defense vs Cousins than JV would have) to hold the Kings off and win the game with his defense. It didn't work. It didn't help that we racked up exactly 0 points in the last 3 minutes.

I don't think Dwane is going to explain in blunt terms to anyone what he was thinking and why. Its just not in his or most coaches make up to do so.

Just to say he is an idiot without looking at what might have been his reasoning to me is unfair and a jump to judgement without having all the facts at hand. It is entirely plausible that if we scored 12 more points instead of 8 and got a couple of stops the Raps might have won that game and his decision to play Biz for his defense pans out .. but they didn't get the points and Biz didn't close down Cousins. We lost. That sucked. But thats done and in the past.

Now we get to play the champs and see how we stack up against the best in the league. I think we do better than most expect us to tonight.

But he had soo much time to see that it wasn't working. Am I taking crazy pills here??? Biyombo was in for 18 minutes straight and he had the last 8 mins to see that he wasn't working. I mean, you HAVE to make an adjustment there or you deserve to called an idiot.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

My thoughts were that Casey made a coaching decision in real time that in hindsight didn't work out. Lots of in game decisions are made in every game in every sport. Some work out some don't.

I am not saying I know for a dead solid fact that this is what went through his mind but this is a possible explanation.
He gambled that he was up 10 with 6 or 7 to play and that he would use BB and his remaining fouls (and Caseys perceived view at that time in the game that BB provided better defense vs Cousins than JV would have) to hold the Kings off and win the game with his defense. It didn't work. It didn't help that we racked up exactly 0 points in the last 3 minutes.

I don't think Dwane is going to explain in blunt terms to anyone what he was thinking and why. Its just not in his or most coaches make up to do so.

Just to say he is an idiot without looking at what might have been his reasoning to me is unfair and a jump to judgement without having all the facts at hand. It is entirely plausible that if we scored 12 more points instead of 8 and got a couple of stops the Raps might have won that game and his decision to play Biz for his defense pans out .. but they didn't get the points and Biz didn't close down Cousins. We lost. That sucked. But thats done and in the past.

Now we get to play the champs and see how we stack up against the best in the league. I think we do better than most expect us to tonight.

You seem to be missing the fundamental points that everybody arguing with you has been making, myself included.

1. Biyombo played for nearly 18 straight minutes, including the first 11:30 of the 4th quarter. It doesn't matter who the player is, nobody should play for that long, simply because they're going to be gassed and ineffective.

2. Biyombo was not doing a good job defending Cousins; certainly no better than JV's defense on Cousins. Watch the game, check the box score, do whatever you need to do, but every shred of evidence will support this.

3. Per the bolded part, a big reason for that is because when Biyombo is on the court, the Raptors are essentially playing 4-on-5 on the offensive end.


Casey's coaching decisions were directly (keeping an ineffective Biyombo on for 18 straight minutes) and indirectly (directing/causing/allowing DeRozan to turn team play into hero-ball for the last 6 minutes of the game, starting with a 10 point lead) the cause for the Raptors loss.