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Game #11: Toronto Raptors 101 - Sacramento Kings 107

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  • raptors999
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    golden wrote: View Post
    Not necessarily easier to be a genius in that scenario either, because the expectation is so much higher; i.e., NBA Finals, or the coach is messing things up. Bottom line is that coaches can and do put their players in positions to fail or at least not maximize their potential at every talent level (scrub, average or elite).

    That's why some people are calling Brad Stevens a coaching genius. He's got a lineup of scrubs and average players, but he's got them playing smart basketball, way above the sum of parts and expected results. Not even borderline all-star talent on that roster. Also because he did the same thing on multiple occasions in college, with Butler.
    Carlisle, Pop do the same thing. Mavs haven't had a good roster except Dirk since they won it all but they win 50+ and reach the playoffs in the West every year. Spurs do it so often nobody talks about it

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  • golden
    replied
    Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    Good points... maybe it would be easier to be a coaching genius then if you had Steph Curry or Kevin Durant in the locker room. Not guaranteed but easier.
    Not necessarily easier to be a genius in that scenario either, because the expectation is so much higher; i.e., NBA Finals, or the coach is messing things up. Bottom line is that coaches can and do put their players in positions to fail or at least not maximize their potential at every talent level (scrub, average or elite).

    That's why some people are calling Brad Stevens a coaching genius. He's got a lineup of scrubs and average players, but he's got them playing smart basketball, way above the sum of parts and expected results. Not even borderline all-star talent on that roster. Also because he did the same thing on multiple occasions in college, with Butler.

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  • Demographic Shift
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    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Watch the Utah game?
    Every minute. Just off suicide watch.

    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Did you like how the Raptors went ISO and lost the game?
    I never like it when they lose a game. They do what they have to do.
    Over the last 3-4 game stretch there is not much dependability (save for that streak vs GSW) on anyone making anything from the outside in the way of 3 point shots. If thats not there and the defense is being packed in down low the going gets really tough. So the conundrum ... if its not happening on the perimeter and its one an done then you have to go inside. We aren't getting it done there either but going at the basket is always a higher percentage as you can get putbacks or fouls.

    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Ya that is on the coach for not teaching his players how to run an offense to perfection as a go-to in the clutch. ISO is the lazy man's coaching style
    Lots of shared culpability to go around.
    We have always been looking for the equivalent of Mariano Rivera on our roster. Closest we had to a game ending closer was Vince.
    Last edited by Demographic Shift; Thu Nov 19, 2015, 05:27 PM.

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  • OldSkoolCool
    replied
    @DS

    Watch the Utah game?

    Did you like how the Raptors went ISO and lost the game?

    Ya that is on the coach for not teaching his players how to run an offense to perfection as a go-to in the clutch. ISO is the lazy man's coaching style

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  • Demographic Shift
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    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    First bold - this is the exact problem several people pointed out, that by playing 4-on-5 offense, it almost forces the team to rely on the inefficient and unsuccessful ISO/hero-ball approach
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Second bold - against Cousins, Biyombo was having no greater success than Valanciunas was
    Thanks for agreeing. It was either death by hanging or death by firing squad. Your choice. Biz or JV. Casey made his and initially the lead did move from 3 to 10. It didn't last though.

    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Third bold - a complete joke, based on perception/reputation instead of reality, per the 2 points above
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Fourth bold - proves the concerns related to the first point above
    If you say so. It must be true then eh ?

    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Fifth bold - this is where our disagreement lies, if you think the strategy was sound; myself and others don't, largely due to the points above, which have unfortunately been proven right time and time again. It's not that a "plausible strategy" happened to fail, but rather that a poor strategy that was doomed to fail (unless hero-ball bailed it out), did fail.
    Then it shall remain our disagreement in perpetuity. Its clear that your not changing your view (nor should you) and neither am I. You didn't like the strategy and I thought it was plausible under the specific circumstances.

    So it ends ? Or do we grab the smelling salts for round 17 ?

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  • white men can't jump
    replied
    raptors999 wrote: View Post
    He did it to Scola last night. Weird ass rotations are his trademark
    Yes, but in many cases there are reasons to think one thing might work better than another. Scola and 2Pat have different strengths. PF is the position most likely to be weeded out when going 4-out small (though I think Scola should be getting C minutes, like JV, in such lineups). And PF is also our sketchiest position.

    There's just no single reason of any kind for him to have kept Biyombo out there. Ok, you gotta put him in for some minutes *since he is the backup...but yeah, when it became clear he was going to ride him out the whole game that decision was terrible in every possible sense. Even if you're going to overuse him and basically throw the game strategically, he didn't even give the guy a breather. I think Casey forgets what it's like to run all out up and down a basketball court.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Wed Nov 18, 2015, 06:41 PM.

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  • raptors999
    replied
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I don't know how there's so many pages of debate about this decision.

    It was a completely indefensible coaching decision, any way you slice it.

    And the whole 18-minute straight thing. He's done that kind of shit before. I distinctly remember him doing that with Hansbrough at C at least once, where Hansbrough played like 15+ minutes straight. That's just obviously bad coaching. There's no justification for it. You exhaust your player who'll play worse and worse as he gets tired, and it also might even increase risk of injury. The guy or two at the same position sitting get ice cold and lose any game rhythm. And you make it easy for your opponent to adjust because of the time they have to do so.

    There is simply no reason to play someone like that. If the explanation is Casey trapped himself by not making a sub at some point to rest Biyombo, that's also indefensible, especially with the amount of stoppages in the 4th. Then he was just too stupid to realize how long he had the guy in there and failed to sub him out to give him even a brief rest before riding him again down the stretch.

    When you add the whole "the team was obviously worse offensively and at best the same defensively with BB in there", it makes it even more ridiculous. It's not like Biyombo was out there tearing it up. He was struggling with Cousins (like everybody), and a liability (to say the least) on the other end. What is there even to discuss?
    He did it to Scola last night. Weird ass rotations are his trademark

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  • white men can't jump
    replied
    I don't know how there's so many pages of debate about this decision.

    It was a completely indefensible coaching decision, any way you slice it.

    And the whole 18-minute straight thing. He's done that kind of shit before. I distinctly remember him doing that with Hansbrough at C at least once, where Hansbrough played like 15+ minutes straight. That's just obviously bad coaching. There's no justification for it. You exhaust your player who'll play worse and worse as he gets tired, and it also might even increase risk of injury. The guy or two at the same position sitting get ice cold and lose any game rhythm. And you make it easy for your opponent to adjust because of the time they have to do so.

    There is simply no reason to play someone like that. If the explanation is Casey trapped himself by not making a sub at some point to rest Biyombo, that's also indefensible, especially with the amount of stoppages in the 4th. Then he was just too stupid to realize how long he had the guy in there and failed to sub him out to give him even a brief rest before riding him again down the stretch.

    When you add the whole "the team was obviously worse offensively and at best the same defensively with BB in there", it makes it even more ridiculous. It's not like Biyombo was out there tearing it up. He was struggling with Cousins (like everybody), and a liability (to say the least) on the other end. What is there even to discuss?

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  • CalgaryRapsFan
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    Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    Consider that perhaps he may initially have been forced into it. Jonas was not having a particularly good night offensively. A pretty pedestrian 2 for 9 and 5 boards. Casey isn’t as big a dummy as most portray him to be and very clearly knows Biz is brutal on the offensive end but then how much worse could it be than 2 of 9 that you got from your number 1. Factor in JV wasn’t having much success holding Cousins off the scoresheet. Some nights you know you don’t have it. Your teammates know and as sure as there is going to be snow in Winnipeg in December the coach knows. JV didn’t have it Sunday. So Biz becomes an option here. We are up by 3 at the quarter and Biz had played ~ 9 minutes and he was ready to go. The other option (the never ending project Bebe Noguriea) is in Fort Wayne on assignment. So you make your decision and its Biz going in. You talk to your go to guys (DD and Kyle) that your going to need them to carry the load as BB is going in. Your two guys look up and say .. we got it coach.
    So whaddaya know Biz goes in and the lead gets stretched to 10 at the 7 minute mark. Biz has now played 14 minutes but its been broken up with a blow at the quarter and two full time outs taken at the 10 and 8 minute marks. He’s 23. Hes got legs and we are up 10. OK here we go. Biz your back in. In this scenario thats the gamble..that Biz would continue to hold up the defensive end (Sacto had 4 points in 5 minutes) and Casey would ride this out and have his defense win it for him. Time ticks on .. Sacto starts to closes the gap but still .. its two possession game with 3ish to go and we have the ball. However there is still time to sub out Biz and put in a now cold as ice JV off the bench. Tough call. Decision made again to stay with Biz and defense rather than JV to try to win it with offense. As we all painfully saw it went PFFT.. We lost guys in switches for two wide open under the basket dunks and DD and Kyle couldn’t carry the load. We got nada/niente/zappo points the rest of the way. The gamble/decision didn’t pan out. We lost. Rats. Heartbreaker. On to the next one.
    From my viewpoint its a plausible strategy in the context of how the game was playing out. Its not always about algorithms and analytics as the game is unfolding at speed with plenty of human variables in play. I think I have said this in staccato fashion amongst the various posts in this long tennis match. You don’t have to agree with this view point or support it.

    It is what it is.
    First bold - this is the exact problem several people pointed out, that by playing 4-on-5 offense, it almost forces the team to rely on the inefficient and unsuccessful ISO/hero-ball approach

    Second bold - against Cousins, Biyombo was having no greater success than Valanciunas was

    Third bold - a complete joke, based on perception/reputation instead of reality, per the 2 points above

    Fourth bold - proves the concerns related to the first point above

    Fifth bold - this is where our disagreement lies, if you think the strategy was sound; myself and others don't, largely due to the points above, which have unfortunately been proven right time and time again. It's not that a "plausible strategy" happened to fail, but rather that a poor strategy that was doomed to fail (unless hero-ball bailed it out), did fail.

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  • Demographic Shift
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post
    I don't know about that. Scott Brooks had Kevin Durant and Mark Jackson had Steph Curry and both of those guys got run out of town with their reputations not so highly regarded.

    Neither was considered a coaching genius, except perhaps Brooks for a brief period after he took over, which was relative to how inept a job that PJ Carlesimo had done (he had Durant playing SG position, among other things).

    Same thing happened with Mike D'Antoni and the Knicks (Melo, Chandler, Amare), and D'Antoni again with the Lakers (Dwight, Kobe, Pau). It could possibly be happening this season with Alvin Gentry and Anthony Davis.
    Good points... maybe it would be easier to be a coaching genius then if you had Steph Curry or Kevin Durant in the locker room. Not guaranteed but easier.

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  • Axel
    replied
    Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    Three guys think so.Some of the them are even RR superstars..

    DanH
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    Both could be available at the end of the year.
    Edit.. both being McHale and JB Bickerstaff

    Axel

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    DanH wrote:
    Both could be available at the end of the year.
    True but I don't want to wait that long

    Besides, wouldn't it be ideal to land McHale as top dog then have him bring JB as the assistant in the off-season? Win-Win!

    ceez

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    Besides, wouldn't it be ideal to land McHale as top dog then have him bring JB as the assistant in the off-season? Win-Win!
    that'd be really something

    think McHale would be a godsend for JV. and probably Lowry.
    Wow man. Just wow.

    I think you completely misunderstand the premise of that thread. McHale isn't necessarily at the top of any list but he would be an improvement over Casey.

    I would actually have a fair bit of interest in Bickerstaff though. Will be interesting to see how his interim gig goes.

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  • raptors999
    replied
    KHD wrote: View Post
    because people were journalistically fellating everything to do with the Warriors, and therefore thought Gentry was some kind of genius who could bring them to new heights.
    Their PnR offense is pretty good its just so hampered by awful players that it doesnt really work. Just like Browns offense in Philly, its really Spurs-esque if the Spurs were D-League rejects. The passes and movement is good then it clanks off the rim alot.

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  • KHD
    replied
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    To be fair to Gentry, I'm not sure how anyone had the Pelicans pegged as a playoff team. That roster is still hot garbage outside of Davis.
    because people were journalistically fellating everything to do with the Warriors, and therefore thought Gentry was some kind of genius who could bring them to new heights.

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  • Nilanka
    replied
    golden wrote: View Post
    I don't know about that. Scott Brooks had Kevin Durant and Mark Jackson had Steph Curry and both of those guys got run out of town with their reputations not so highly regarded.

    Neither was considered a coaching genius, except perhaps Brooks for a brief period after he took over, which was relative to how inept a job that PJ Carlesimo had done (he had Durant playing SG position, among other things).

    Same thing happened with Mike D'Antoni and the Knicks (Melo, Chandler, Amare), and D'Antoni again with the Lakers (Dwight, Kobe, Pau). It could possibly be happening this season with Alvin Gentry and Anthony Davis.
    To be fair to Gentry, I'm not sure how anyone had the Pelicans pegged as a playoff team. That roster is still hot garbage outside of Davis.

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  • golden
    replied
    Demographic Shift wrote: View Post
    For what its worth... I think if a player the caliber of a Stephan Curry or Kevin Durant suits up for the Raps then anyone of those above mentioned guys becomes a coaching genius.
    I don't know about that. Scott Brooks had Kevin Durant and Mark Jackson had Steph Curry and both of those guys got run out of town with their reputations not so highly regarded.

    Neither was considered a coaching genius, except perhaps Brooks for a brief period after he took over, which was relative to how inept a job that PJ Carlesimo had done (he had Durant playing SG position, among other things).

    Same thing happened with Mike D'Antoni and the Knicks (Melo, Chandler, Amare), and D'Antoni again with the Lakers (Dwight, Kobe, Pau). It could possibly be happening this season with Alvin Gentry and Anthony Davis.

    Leave a comment:

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