Is the D-League a Viable Way to Develop Young Players?

[JWash]

I'm not saying that JV is as good as Tim Duncan, I'm simply using the comparison to point out how ridiculous his low minutes and usage are in context to his statistical comparables. I don't believe JV is, or ever will be, as good as JV. I do believe he has the talent to make All-NBA teams if used properly.

For the Kawhi comparison, Kawhi's minutes and usage have steadily climbed throughout his career. His usage has gone up every season.

Kawhi's usage progression: 14.5%, 16.4%, 18.3%, 23.0%, 25.4%.

JV's minutes have been dropping the last two years, and his usage has climbed, but marginally.

JV's usage progression: 16.9%, 18.5%, 19.1%, 20.5%.

Not nearly the same climbs when he hit elite levels of PER and WS/48.

JV's usage hasn't climbed at the same rate because he isn't playing with aging and regressing stars... You think if Duncan was still throwing down 20-10 like nothing and Parker and Ginobili were still star level players on a nightly basis Kawhi would be getting as much opportunity as he does?

[planetmars]

JV getting the minutes he did under Casey worked out.. I mean Masai was able to convince JV and his agent to sign that beautiful contract.

[thead]

can I just point two very important things

1.) JV is not Tim Duncan, and we don't need that from him

2.) we have two all stars so even if JVs ceiling is just "really good player"...that's fine

[Barolt]

There's nothing wrong with the stats, he's just applying no context to them and that's where you start to get in trouble. Duncan was anchoring a near championship level team (I know they didn't win in his rookie year) on BOTH ENDS in his rookie season. And he's here talking about TOV% and TS%. Of course a dude who's taking 9 shots per game is going to be more efficient than someone who's the backbone of one of the league's best teams.

This is honestly such a ridiculous comparison. It's like comparing DeRozan to Jordan. Like no, just no.

There's basically no statistical comparison between DeRozan and Jordan that doesn't make DeMar look awful. There is a statistical comparison between JV and Duncan that doesn't make JV look awful. That alone says a lot.

[Apollo]

While valid points, does anyone have a legit reason for concern in any of those areas?

If we're going to speculate on why he's not getting minutes all sorts of possibilities can be on the table. Him not doing the right things off court is a reasonable guess. Its as reasonable as the idea of Casey being as dumb as the rocks underneath the ACC. Actually when I put it that way is sounds more reasonable. LOL

For your listed questions
When JV is out (which is all I am lobbying for on this point), Biyombo plays very high minutes. He played 42 last night with OT. Take off OT and that is still 37 mp. That is a huge number for our backup (more than our starter would ever get) and wouldn't be unreasonable to give Bebe a few of those minutes. Other guys like Scola and JT are others who could sacrifice minutes for Bebe (JT just got here, hasn't played better than Bebe in any game, yet has leap frogged him in the rotation).

Biyombo is only 23 years old, the same age as Bebe. Biyombo is a better player so what's the problem with that? Casey is getting a young guy in there and clearly Biyombo deserves PT when you watch him play.

And no it wouldn't be unreasonable for Bebe to eat in that scenario with all other things being fine. Again though, we don't know what's going on with Bebe behind the scenes.

Does Bebe deserve the opportunity - well like you said, we don't know the whole story but unless there is a specific reason not to give him the opportunity - the default answer is yes. He is a talented young big who is under contract for us and could be needed next year.

Not sure I agree that it is docking minutes from someone else in this situation. Biyombo is going from his regular mp to significantly more. Increase his minutes by a few less isn't really docking him. Scola deserves to be docked and that is well documented. JT hasn't really done anything except be in the league longer at this point.

I really am feeling that this probably has more to do with Bebe than any of these guys. Like you said, on the surface it doesn't add up. It's not unreasonable then to suggest there are other factors at play. Maybe factors I mentioned? Hard to say. I just don't buy the idea that everything that looks wrong is wrong because Casey is substandard.

[Barolt]

JV doesn't carry anywhere near the role Duncan had so of course anything related to efficiency is going to be higher... Tim Duncan was the backbone of the Spurs offense AND defense, he led the entire league in DWS in his rookie season. Like are we seriously comparing JV to Tim Duncan right now? I'm as big a JV fan as anyone, but let's calm ourselves a bit, we're talking about a top 10 player to ever step on the court here.

And no Pop doesn't just immediately hand first option status to young players with top talent. He did with Duncan because he had ALL-TIME talent. Look at Kawhi's usage his first 4 years and you'll see it's very similar to Jonas'.

I'm not saying that JV is as good as Tim Duncan, I'm simply using the comparison to point out how ridiculous his low minutes and usage are in context to his statistical comparables. I don't believe JV is, or ever will be, as good as JV. I do believe he has the talent to make All-NBA teams if used properly.

For the Kawhi comparison, Kawhi's minutes and usage have steadily climbed throughout his career. His usage has gone up every season.

Kawhi's usage progression: 14.5%, 16.4%, 18.3%, 23.0%, 25.4%.

JV's minutes have been dropping the last two years, and his usage has climbed, but marginally.

JV's usage progression: 16.9%, 18.5%, 19.1%, 20.5%.

Not nearly the same climbs when he hit elite levels of PER and WS/48.

[JWash]

Please stop with this nonsense. This is another one of those times you let stats lead you down a ridiculous train of thought.

There's nothing wrong with the stats, he's just applying no context to them and that's where you start to get in trouble. Duncan was anchoring a near championship level team (I know they didn't win in his rookie year) on BOTH ENDS in his rookie season. And he's here talking about TOV% and TS%. Of course a dude who's taking 9 shots per game is going to be more efficient than someone who's the backbone of one of the league's best teams.

This is honestly such a ridiculous comparison. It's like comparing DeRozan to Jordan. Like no, just no.

[Mess]

By almost any metric, this simply isn't true.

JV has a higher WS/48, PER, TRB%, TS%, lower TOV%, Better ORTG than Duncan's rookie season. And JV is playing next to Scola, where Duncan was playing next to David Robinson.

Duncan played much higher minutes per game in his rookie season, and had higher usage than JV has ever had.

Because when Popovich has a young player with elite talent, that player is going to see the court and the ball.

Please stop with this nonsense. This is another one of those times you let stats lead you down a ridiculous train of thought.

I GUARANTEE you that if JV was depended on as much as Duncan (or DD or KL) his glorious per 36, per 100 possession numbers would take a serious nosedive. Of course then you'd argue that's because Casey failed in developing him.

And not because of this silly argument, but because I'm curious to see it, I'd like DD and KL to sit for a game or two together down the stretch and for the Raptors to just feed JV the whole game. Postups, pick and rolls, pick and pops, elbow touches - the whole shebang. Let's see how his efficiency numbers end up (in that comically small sample size), how it affects his D and how the team does.

[JWash]

By almost any metric, this simply isn't true.

JV has a higher WS/48, PER, TRB%, TS%, lower TOV%, Better ORTG than Duncan's rookie season. And JV is playing next to Scola, where Duncan was playing next to David Robinson.

Duncan played much higher minutes per game in his rookie season, and had higher usage than JV has ever had.

Because when Popovich has a young player with elite talent, that player is going to see the court and the ball.

JV doesn't carry anywhere near the role Duncan had so of course anything related to efficiency is going to be higher... Tim Duncan was the backbone of the Spurs offense AND defense, he led the entire league in DWS in his rookie season. Like are we seriously comparing JV to Tim Duncan right now? I'm as big a JV fan as anyone, but let's calm ourselves a bit, we're talking about a top 10 player to ever step on the court here.

And no Pop doesn't just immediately hand first option status to young players with top talent. He did with Duncan because he had ALL-TIME talent. Look at Kawhi's usage his first 4 years and you'll see it's very similar to Jonas'.

[Barolt]

How on earth is that awful? I didn't say it was, Pau Gasol has won 2 titles has been 20-10 his whole career basically and arguably should have a finals MVP too.

But JV is not Duncan, like can we stop? Duncan in his rookie season was better than JV will likely ever be.

By almost any metric, this simply isn't true.

JV has a higher WS/48, PER, TRB%, TS%, lower TOV%, Better ORTG than Duncan's rookie season. And JV is playing next to Scola, where Duncan was playing next to David Robinson.

Duncan played much higher minutes per game in his rookie season, and had higher usage than JV has ever had.

Because when Popovich has a young player with elite talent, that player is going to see the court and the ball.

[JWash]

Is that awful? Is that supposed to be a terrible thing?

Also, I'm not saying JV will have anywhere near the career of Duncan. But at the same age, the numbers aren't that drastically different, are they?

How on earth is that awful? I didn't say it was, Pau Gasol has won 2 titles has been 20-10 his whole career basically and arguably should have a finals MVP too.

But JV is not Duncan, like can we stop? Duncan in his rookie season was better than JV will likely ever be.

[Axel]

Well now that depends. Is Bebe doing the things in practice, after practice and in the film room to earn the minutes, to prove he deserves the minutes? There is a pecking order in NBA locker rooms and one of the greatest deciding factors in that order happens to be one of the greatest motivators for players, for anyone in any job really, and that is knowing hard work and production leads to opportunities.

So:

• Who are they starving or snubbing to feed him?
• Does Bebe deserve that opportunity? Why?
• Does that other guy deserve to be docked minutes or miss out on opportunities? Why?

These are questions that are near impossible to answer unless you're an insider and it would be a dream come true if we had one here in the community. They're valid questions to consider. We're here looking at box scores and slamming the coach but we don't understand the dynamics of their locker room or who's dogging it in practice or the film room. We don't know who has the good attitude, who gets down easily. All this stuff affects performance, practices, lineups, everything.

I'm just trying to say here that this is more complicated than tossing in the young guy for the sake of him getting NBA minutes. They're trying to win games, they're trying to keep guys who actually do produce motivated, they're trying to get ready for a playoff push. The coach needs a new contract. You have a guy like DeRozan who needs a new contract. There's a lot at play.

While valid points, does anyone have a legit reason for concern in any of those areas?

For your listed questions
When JV is out (which is all I am lobbying for on this point), Biyombo plays very high minutes. He played 42 last night with OT. Take off OT and that is still 37 mp. That is a huge number for our backup (more than our starter would ever get) and wouldn't be unreasonable to give Bebe a few of those minutes. Other guys like Scola and JT are others who could sacrifice minutes for Bebe (JT just got here, hasn't played better than Bebe in any game, yet has leap frogged him in the rotation).

Does Bebe deserve the opportunity - well like you said, we don't know the whole story but unless there is a specific reason not to give him the opportunity - the default answer is yes. He is a talented young big who is under contract for us and could be needed next year.

Not sure I agree that it is docking minutes from someone else in this situation. Biyombo is going from his regular mp to significantly more. Increase his minutes by a few less isn't really docking him. Scola deserves to be docked and that is well documented. JT hasn't really done anything except be in the league longer at this point.

[Barolt]

Yeah I have to agree with this. If you have a once in a generation type player (Duncan, Jordan, Lebron), you give them all the minutes they need to achieve their greatness because the franchise's future depends on them.

The Raptors future will involve but certainly will not revolve around JV.

Pau Gasol, according to basketball-reference.com, is 58th All-Time in Career WS/48, 75th in Hall of Fame probability, 42nd in BPM, 37th in PER, a 4-time All-NBA team member, 6-time All-Star, 2-time Champion.

That's JV's ceiling? That's it? Well shit, I guess he's awful then.

[CNinja26]

Not saying JV's minutes/usage shouldn't be higher. But you are comparing arguably the greatest PF of all time (who is really a center but I digress) to Valanciunas whose best case is somewhere around Pau Gasol. It's really not the same.

Yeah I have to agree with this. If you have a once in a generation type player (Duncan, Jordan, Lebron), you give them all the minutes they need to achieve their greatness because the franchise's future depends on them.

The Raptors future will involve but certainly will not revolve around JV.

[Mess]

There's one big difference I can see in that period between the Spurs and Raptors with regards to opportunities to develop...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

Their developing stud center led the team in usage and minutes. Ours plays less than 26 minutes per night, and barely gets 20% usage.

People keep claiming that JV and Ross are examples of Casey developing young talent, I'd argue both of them have still been woefully underused because Casey has pinned the hopes of the organization on two players, and two players alone.