Game #22: Toronto Raptors 126 - Phoenix Suns 113

[3inthekeon]

Interesting stat from Blake's recap this morning

it’s encouraging that they’ve already reached 30 assists three times this year, something they accomplished just three times in total over the last four years.

[planetmars]

Yeah, this is exactly my point. The Raptors shouldn't be begging. JV has a function on the team right now, and even if that function shrinks in the playoffs, he'll still be useful for matchup purposes.

There are only two arguments that I buy for trading JV. First, if you can indeed be choosers, and only trade him in a move that improves the team or brings in more significant assets than a mid-2nd round pick... Or second, if you happen to care about the team saving a buck, which I don't.

I just don't want to see another Carroll situation. JV is no Carroll but he's becoming less and less a part of this team based on his minutes/production. In the East the only teams that JV would help against would be Detroit, Charlotte, Orlando and possibly Miami. 3 of those teams are heading for the lottery. So his value would be even more diminished, and that can create a Carroll situation where we might be forced to give up an asset to move him.

If we can nip that in the bud early it might be worthwhile. Could always try to pick up a big Center in the summer for cheap.. a guy like Okafor or Monroe to always have that bruiser on the bench for certain matchups.

[Rudy Bargnani]

How do you breakdown lineup stats by game?
Lowry, Derozan and Poeltl don't have good numbers together as a trio in like 95 minutes together, just wondering how to breakdown if that's from a couple stinker games like Denver.

[DanH]

I just don't want to see another Carroll situation. JV is no Carroll but he's becoming less and less a part of this team based on his minutes/production. In the East the only teams that JV would help against would be Detroit, Charlotte, Orlando and possibly Miami. 3 of those teams are heading for the lottery. So his value would be even more diminished, and that can create a Carroll situation where we might be forced to give up an asset to move him.

If we can nip that in the bud early it might be worthwhile. Could always try to pick up a big Center in the summer for cheap.. a guy like Okafor or Monroe to always have that bruiser on the bench for certain matchups.

I think it's too late. His trade value now is essentially what it will be until the end of his contract, though it might jump up a bit as an expiring, but that's a couple years from now.

Okafor... as in Jahlil Okafor? Yeah, I'd rather try VanVleet on any big matchups we get. Monroe will likely not be all that much cheaper than JV (around MLE, so like 5-6M cheaper at best) and you have to hard cap the team again to make such a move.

So, yeah, if the argument is that we as fans are like super invested in the profit margin for the team's owners, I see why you'd argue for such a trade. I have no such investment.

[DanH]

Gah, double post.

[JimiCliff]

Interesting stat from Blake's recap this morning

it’s encouraging that they’ve already reached 30 assists three times this year, something they accomplished just three times in total over the last four years.

I'm glad that all us armchair quarterbacks who pointed out the ridiculousness of 'we don't have the personnel to pass' have been so resoundingly vindicated.

[DanH]

How do you breakdown lineup stats by game?
Lowry, Derozan and Poeltl don't have good numbers together as a trio in like 95 minutes together, just wondering how to breakdown if that's from a couple stinker games like Denver.

Kind of have to do it manually, it's a lot of work. Let me see what I can do.

[3inthekeon]

I just don't want to see another Carroll situation. JV is no Carroll but he's becoming less and less a part of this team based on his minutes/production. In the East the only teams that JV would help against would be Detroit, Charlotte, Orlando and possibly Miami. 3 of those teams are heading for the lottery. So his value would be even more diminished, and that can create a Carroll situation where we might be forced to give up an asset to move him.

If we can nip that in the bud early it might be worthwhile. Could always try to pick up a big Center in the summer for cheap.. a guy like Okafor or Monroe to always have that bruiser on the bench for certain matchups.

And this is why JV, or any C of his contract ilk is so difficult to move.

[planetmars]

I want this to be a tax team (under the right circumstances). I would have rather kept Carroll and paid the tax then to shed a couple of picks.. but with JV I'm concerned that MLSE/Masai might do the same thing.

We're over the tax next year if this band is back (and it should). We might be over the tax this year if Kyle and DeMar get their bonuses. I don't care so much about being a tax team, but if MLSE/Masai do then we might have to ship JV with a pick or a prospect to get under that tax.

Mirotic is disgruntled. Hates playing with Portis and is on a bad team.. a team who could use a young center and has a shit load of cap space to boot. Mirotic is a shooter and can play passable defense (if he's trying).. he was originally developed under Thibs of all people. Plus he plays a position of need. Our only true PF is Siakam (assuming Serge plays more at the 5).

A second rounder could nab us another Powell. Nothing to scoff at.

[planetmars]

And this is why JV, or any C of his contract ilk is so difficult to move.

That's why I think a Mirotic trade is something we should consider.. if it was on the table.

[DanH]

How do you breakdown lineup stats by game?
Lowry, Derozan and Poeltl don't have good numbers together as a trio in like 95 minutes together, just wondering how to breakdown if that's from a couple stinker games like Denver.

So, here's what I got. Keep in mind lineup data for any individual game will be hilariously SSS, so obviously none of these really tell a story on their own, that's why we aggregate lineup data. But it does show what happened in each game, for whatever that's worth.

Game 1 vs CHI: 1 minute sample (-107 net rating)
Game 2 vs PHI: 3 minute sample (+31 net rating)
Game 3 vs SAS: 11 minute sample (+26 net rating)
Game 4 vs GSW: 13 minute sample (-31 net rating)
Game 5 vs LAL: 3 minute sample (-72 net rating)
Game 6 vs POR: 5 minute sample (+11 net rating)
Game 7 vs DEN: Didn't play
Game 8 vs UTA: 3 minute sample (-5 net rating)
Game 9 vs WAS: 2 minute sample (-65 net rating)
Game 10 vs CHI: 2 minute sample (-92 net rating)
Game 11 vs NOP: 3 minute sample (-26 net rating)
Game 12 vs BOS: 2 minute sample (-17 net rating)
Game 13 vs HOU: Didn't play
Game 14 vs NOP: 5 minute sample (-20 net rating)
Game 15 vs NYK: 6 minute sample (+54 net rating) Love the Knicks.
Game 16 vs WAS: 3 minute sample (+27 net rating)
Game 17 vs NYK: 6 minute sample (-120 net rating) Never mind.
Game 18 vs IND: 2 minute sample (+2 net rating)
Game 19 vs ATL: 3 minute sample (+20 net rating)
Game 20 vs CHA: 7 minute sample (-21 net rating)
Game 21 vs IND: 8 minute sample (-78 net rating)
Game 22 vs PHX: 7 minute sample (+52 net rating)

There you have it. No obvious pattern to me, or false flag result-skewing game.

[3inthekeon]

I'm glad that all us armchair quarterbacks who pointed out the ridiculousness of 'we don't have the personnel to pass' have been so resoundingly vindicated.

That quote is from the John Salmons team. There were 2 issues going into this year. First issue - would they pass? There was a lot of scepticism that the ball movement talk was just PR BS and the team would go back to their ISO ways as soon as things got tough, Some posters didn't believe the team would change at all.

Second issue was one I had - the main guys MU brought in, Ibaka and Miles, were notorious for their lack of passing skills. That still holds. Notoriously poor passer JV's 5.4 AST% is slightly better than Miles and almost double Ibaka's 3%.

The extra playing time for our guards with those 3 guard line-ups - most notably FVV, the buy-in from DD and (even if hesitantly) Lowry, the addition of OG, and Pascal who's AST% has more than quadrupled (2.9 to 12.3!!!) are what's driving ball movement.

[3inthekeon]

Found this on Zach Lowe's twitter, RE; Thibs ISO TWolves,.Got a chuckle from this comment:

Don't worry, you're the 2015 Raptors. That's not the worst thing to be!

[slaw]

Interesting stat from Blake's recap this morning

Despite some discouraging performances they haven't wavered much from the new system outside of a few stretches here and there where they panicked or got bogged down.

And, most importantly, 11th in pace. Still, to me, that's the key number as it's indicative of a new way of thinking....

[Demographic Shift]

And this is why JV, or any C of his contract ilk is so difficult to move.

That..and it’s just not in Ujiri’s DNA to make a forced trade when from his viewpoint his team is making great strides down the path he wants with existing personnel. A trade for the sake of a trade is highly unlikely. So far Serge has missed a couple games with knee swelling and Bebe can’t stay healthy for much longer than a month so in the background there is that to consider as well.

However..in the world of message board blogging there are endless permutations on the hypothetical.

I myself would love to trade the massive unseen and under utilized potential of Bruno Caboclo to the Pelicans for Anthony Davis. The Pelys have a C in Cousins and could use more three point shooting which Caboclo can bring. Insert plethora of statistics here to support trade.. This hangs as well as the JV trade to Dallas...a player the Mavs don’t really need in exchange for one who is providing expected production.